C2WPLL C-band LNBF

[Costactc]

I've been waiting a while for the dual feed was available. I just ordered one to test and see if it can compete with my other feeds, just want to make sure that I have the most reliable lnbf before winter comes:


The C2PLL™ Phase Lock Loop C-band series of two output LNBF technology provides exceptional reception of weak satellite signals and the most demanding high FEC S2 channels. The wideband version, the C2WPLL™ covers the entire 3.4 to 4.2GHz C-band range. Designed to meet the requirements for light commercial applications and the most demanding satellite hobbyist, it is cost-effective, high quality and professional grade. The C2W-PLL™ polarity is voltage switched independently on both outputs for receiving horizontal / vertical linear or right / left circular (with the included dielectric slab). It includes a flat scaler designed for prime focus dish types and fits the industry standard 68mm scalar mounts and the optional Titanium conical scalar for offset type dishes.

Regular LNBFs typically provide reliable performance for five to seven years. DRO type LNBFs lose performance over time as the mechanically tuned frequency slowly drifts until one day, the receiver is no longer capable of tuning the satellite channels. PLL LNBFs do not rely on a mechanical tuning slug that may shift off frequency due to physical damage or aging. PLL LNBFs have a crystal oscillator that will remain tuned exactly on frequency. The C2W-PLL frequency is +/-50KHz and typically the operational drift to be within +/- 10KHz.

The heavy aluminum casting, snow white poly coating and cooling fins assist with keeping the C2WPLL operational temperature low and running cool. These thermal control features increase the C2W-PLL performance and stability, insuring many years of reliable service.

Titanium Satellite provides a Lifetime Warranty on the C2W-PLL against frequency drift! If you are not completely satisfied with the performance of the Titanium C2PLL™ series of LNBFs, we will promptly refund your purchase!



C2W-PLL Specifications

Number of Outputs 2
RF Input 3.4 - 4.2GHz
IF Output 950 - 1450MHz
L.O. Frequency 5150MHz
Noise Figure 15°K (typical)
Gain 65dB (typical)
Stability 50KHz (typical)
Cross Pol Iso 20dB (typical)
Image Rejection 45dB (typical)
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Polarity Switch V: 11.5 - 14vdc
H: 16 - 20vdc
Input VSWR 2.1:1 (max)
Output VSWR 2.0:1 (max)
Operation Temp -22 to 140°F
Storage Temp -40 to 160°F



9583

[Marv]

I ordered one yesterday. Hope to have it by the weekend. Hope it will improve the reception on my 6 footer. I f it helps there I'm going to get a second one for my 12 footer. Like you I want to ge them installed before the weather turns bad. the one on my 12 footer is about 5 years old, So it's time for a replacement.

[Costactc]

Just going to do a comparison to see which feed provides the best overall signal quality across the arc. This test will include 3 feeds:

bsc422(presently on my dish and has been for 2 years)

psi x-2

c2wpll

I was going to throw the esx 242 into the mix as well but the only place I could find one has closed its doors. The single pll that I tested on my 8' dish was better on some satellites but outright dreadful on others.

[el bandido]

The lnb conatins the actual antenna, while the dish is just a reflector.
You will not find two antennas that perform exactly the same unless a lot of time and effort is spent on making them. It is very common for an antenna to perform better at one part or segment of a band while not doing as well on another.

For the most part, FTA lnbs are made from cheap materials, and the actual production cost may be as low as one dollar. Almost all of these lnbs are made in China and the tolerances of these lnbs are not closely monitored. You cannot expect much for that price.

You can take 10 of these cheap lnbs and get 10 different reports on signal strength and performance. Read the specs on these lnbs and you will usually see the word "typical" at least once.

The professional lnb makers tell us that a PLL lnb will not help or make much difference for the majority of the signals we receive. (See attached .pdf)
The people that are selling the PLL lnbs are claiming what appears to be highly exaggerated performance over a dro lnb. I look forward to seeing some other tests comments from somebody besides a seller.

[Costactc]

I have to agree with you entirely EB, however I have found the norm when scanning ku sats. Signal quality on ku sats always varies but I haven't found that to be the norm on c band sats. I have tested many feeds, including professional ones like a chapparal corotor with norsat lnb's, and I have found them extremely similar on c band. Thus far the esx 242 has been the best and I still don't understand why I ever removed it. I will select 5 sats and do the comparison with all 3.

[Costactc]

I have chosen 5 satellites and 1 tp per sat to carry out this test. I will be using the azbox ultra outdoors as its signal quality meter is the best of the lot that I have:

Intelsat 805-55.5w
4095 H 1360
VHSA

Amc 9-83w
3804 V 4167
PA Cable

Galaxy 16-99w
3900 V 27997
DodNews

Eutelsat 113w
3744 V 2893
TV Cuatro

Galaxy 23-121w
3750 V 14029
Sports Time Ohio


I have already recorded the findings with my bsc422 but will redo it when I have the other 2 feeds.

[el bandido]

A small gain or loss of about 1db in snr in testing would not bother me too much. What would really be important to me is how well the two input ports on the lnb are isolated. I noticed input problems with several c band lnbs including the ESX242. Switching channels with different H,V polarities on one receiver would effect the other receiver, and the same for trying to scan both receivers at once. I found a Pauxis with separate H and V ports which solved my receiver H,V switching issues. The Pauxis lnb has worked well for a long time and I am in no hurry to remove it. As far as signal performance, there is not much to be gained in changing lnbs. The best way to get more signal is to use a bigger or better reflector.

[Costactc]

A small gain or loss of about 1db in snr in testing would not bother me too much. What would really be important to me is how well the two input ports on the lnb are isolated. I noticed input problems with several c band lnbs including the ESX242. Switching channels with different H,V polarities on one receiver would effect the other receiver, and the same for trying to scan both receivers at once. I found a Pauxis with separate H and V ports which solved my receiver H,V switching issues. The Pauxis lnb has worked well for a long time and I am in no hurry to remove it. As far as signal performance, there is not much to be gained in changing lnbs. The best way to get more signal is to use a bigger or better reflector.

Which model Pauxis are you using?

[el bandido]

The Pauxis thread is here: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

My opinions on how Titanium has tried to fool us on the pll lnb are here in these two threads:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Lnbs consist of a single dipole antenna, or one dipole for each polarity. They also contain a converter to change the receiver frequency to a lower frequency. The frequency conversion allows us to run smaller feed lines or coax. A lnb also has an amplifier to hold the signal up as it travels down the small feed line.

[el bandido]

I started to order one of the C2WPLL lnbs but I stopped when I saw that the total price with shipping included was over $70.00 U.S.

Then I noticed some of the specs seemed to be taken from Fantasy Land. The C2WPLL has an advertised noise figure of 15K (Noise Figure 15°K (typical) ). I think this equates to about a .2db Noise Figure. Funny that I seem to remember Brian Gohl complaining about ku lnbs advertising a .1 db Noise Figure, and mentioning how unrealistic that was. A Noise Figure of .2db is as unrealistic as .1db!
I looked at a few Norsat lnbs and they have a bit more realistic noise figure of 20-30K instead of the unrealistic 15K that Brian advertises.
It is obvious that the specs for the C2WPLL lnb have not been tested or verified by a reputable laboratory. The word "Typical" is used several times in the specs. Lol

[Costactc]

Still waiting on mine to arrive, should be here this week.

[Costactc]

Well I guess it won't be arriving this week as I just got an e-mail from Titanium:


Hello C2WPLL Purchasers,

Thank you for your patience as waited so long for the C2WPLL to be
restocked! We apologize and are expecting the final accessories to arrive
and clear US Customs by this Thursday/Friday. I will ship all orders the
next business day following the delivery and you will receive the tracking
information via email.

I will also be including a 20% discount coupon good for one year on any
products that we sell.

Please call or email with any questions or concerns. Thank you again for
your patience!

Best Regards!
Titanium Satellite Sales - Brian Gohl
530-652-4405

Bummer.

[el bandido]

He sold you something that he did not have. You and the others have given Brian a money loan without him paying You any interest!

[Costactc]

Not entirely EB, 20% discount on anything that is already overpriced.

[el bandido]

20% Off on a future order is no pay or compensation, rather it is a ploy to get you to buy more stuff. Nothing less than that.

These lnbs were shown as In Stock, and I had one in my basket. I would have ordered it but felt like $70.00 was too much for a lnb that is supposed to be distributed in the U.S. Now I see "Out of Stock" for this lnb and my basket is empty. So he had listed this item as having it when in fact he did not have it. Tell this clown you want 25% off the price of the lnb and see what he says.

[rrob311]

The cost of living is high in California. LOL

[eastof111]

"20% Off on a future order is no pay or compensation, rather it is a ploy to get you to buy more stuff. Nothing less than that."

But it's the thought that counts....LOL

[Marv]

Same here, Been waiting two weeks and heard nothing untill today. Got same E-Mail as Costactc.

[Costactc]

Considering the single CW lnbf I had purchased from them has now been collecting dust in my garage with about another 20 feeds, I should ask for a refund.

[Costactc]

Refund requested. Let's see what his reaction will be if any at all.

[el bandido]

Hopefully Marv will see some performance gains from his Titanium lnb that will make the wait and being lied to worthwhile. I doubt I ever buy anything from Titanium because I think Brian Gohl is nothing more than a silver tongued crook! I wish him the best of luck selling fta receivers to pirates for theft of services. EB

[Costactc]

Full refund submitted. I have 2 other lnbfs on the way to test before I shut it down for Winter.

[rrob311]

Maybe they are taking money up front like that so they can afford an order from overseas.

[el bandido]

Taking the money up front or taking Pre Orders allows the vendor to sell a product and have zero or very little money in the stock.
Let's be generous and say that the CW2PLL will cost Brian Gohl $5.00 a piece if purchased in builk and delivered to a single location on the West Coast. This means that for every lnb that he collects for in advance would allow him to pay for 11 lnbs without having to use any of his own money. If he could collect the money up front for 50 lnbs then he could pay for 550 lnbs without having to use a penny of his own money.
Additional money is collected up front for the CW2PLL because actual shipping cost to the customer is not $15.00! Brian makes a decent profit on the lnb and a small profit the shipping.

This same trick is used for fta receivers.
If you can collect $200.00 a piece for an Amiko A3 up front and you collect for 50 receivers, then you have $10,000.00 of other people's money. If the Amiko A3 cost you $40.00 a piece when delivered to a single location on the West Coast, then you have collected enough money up front to pay for 250 Amiko A3 receivers! So after you ship the first 50 receivers, you have satisfied the initial investment amount of $10,000.00 and the next 200 receivers you ship are pure profit! And you did all of this without using a penny of your own money!

IMO, having the customer pay up front is a dirty deal. The only person that benefits is the dealer and he is laughing at you all the way to the bank!

FTA receivers and lnbs are dirt cheap when purchased in bulk and shipped in bulk. I have looked in depth about purchasing fta products and can assure you the numbers I have used here are realistic numbers for what these fta products actually cost when purchased in bulk.

[Costactc]

One of my 2 new lnbf arrived today. I picked this one up from a Canadian sat site that specialises in big dishes- tek2000.com. CL242:

INPUT FREQUENCY: 3.7-4.2 GHz
L.O. FREQUENCY:5.15 GHz 1 MHz
OUTPUT FREQUENCY: 950-2050 MHz
CONVERSION GAIN: 65 dB (TYP)
NOISE FIGURE: 15K
INPUT V.S.W.R: 2.5:1

9704

97059706

[Costactc]

Spent the last 2 hours tinkering with the feed and even slapped on the CW1. The cl-242 and cw1 failed pathetically, the bsc422 will be staying there until my ps1 x2 lnbf arrives from Thailand. The 2 I tested yielded a signal quality loss of about 10-15%.

[el bandido]

The CW1 is supposed to be about the same as the CW2.
I expected the CW1 to work as good as any other lnb, and maybe a bit better than dro lbs on skinny transponders. You may be able to return the CW1 if it does not perform well. I am sure that Brian Gohl would say it is defective if it is way down when compared to a dro lnb. He would either say it was defective, or he would say that the CW1 was not installed correctly.

[Costactc]

I hear yea EB, good thing I got a refund as it was tested on a real glitchy tp on Intelsat 805 with 15% less signal quality then on my bsc422.

Just got lucky as my new Psi X2 lnbf arrived...I think I'll set my equipment back up and give it a test drive:

9710

[Costactc]

Surprise, surprise. The Psi X2 from Thailand even managed to slightly outperform my bsc422 and I have decided to leave it there.

[Marv]

I Finally received my C2. Got it installed , Only checked a couple of satellites to compare readings. As far as I can tell it performed the same as the one I had . In fact on one tp it was 1 point lower on Q. But the Q changes during the day so can't say it was any worse.I had a Venus VLB-DUO412 on the dish. I'll let it go and see how it holds up. I think it is as good as anything out there. I just don't think it's any better. At least thats my thought. 65 db gain is 65 db gain.And if thats all thats there thats all your going to get..:computer-18:

[el bandido]

Look down the throat or waveguide of the lnb and you will see two quarter wave dipoles, one for each polarity. There is not any db gain for a quarter wave dipole!
The 65 db gain refers to the line amplifier for the coax or feed line between the lnb and fta receiver. The small coax we use along with the switches and other things we put between the fta receiver and lnb have lots of loss n db.The 65 db of gain is to compensate for these items and does not represent satellite signal gain of the lnb because there is no db gain of a quarter wave dipole!
.