Norsat C-band lnbf

[lme]

Currently I have an old Norsat lnb installed on my corotor 2 system (see bellow pic):
17516
I'm looking at replacing it with a Norsat 5150 RF PLL lnb, but I'll have to use an elbow to install it as to be able to cover the hole corotor system with the plastic cone.
Any inputs about this new Norsat ?

[armadillo_115]

I have not tried one yet but I plan to order either a 5150 RF or an ESAT 2022-150 off ebay. The ESAT is $20 cheaper. (I need to compare the specs more first)
I have a cheap Chinese lnb that started to fail yesterday.

[armadillo_115]

Ime, I purchased a Norsat 8525RF (DRO) instead due to the power requirements of a PLL.

Surely someone else can answer your 5150RF question.

[lme]

I also found this DRO, (i forgot about it) a friend gave it to me long time ago:

17521
I'll try it when the weather improves...

[armadillo_115]

I also found this DRO, (i forgot about it) a friend gave it to me long time ago:
I'll try it when the weather improves...

Looks like that 8115 has better Temp and Stability specs than the 8525RF I just bought.

BUT: The 8525RF only does 3.7 - 4.2 GHz. As I understand it, the 8000R series has terrestrial interference rejection to reduce interference below 3.7 GHz. So that is a plus at some locations.

The 8000/8000RF series is discontinued. I searched for a better 8000RF model, but 8525RF seems to be the best of the 8000RF series remaining in stock.

Hope it works well for you and I look forward to reading your results. :th_hi5:

[lme]

Well, DRO doesn't do any good: loosing ~3dB, maybe due to the elbow i need to insert it, so i can fit the cover over.
I'm back to my old lnb from post #1.

[armadillo_115]

While you had the cover off, did you test the DRO without the elbow?
That way you would have an idea how well the DRO works without an elbow. (for future reference)

BTW: My 8525RF was due today.... but got 'delayed' in New Jersey. Whatever that means. Maybe the foreign country of NJ has Customs. lol

[el bandido]

When comparing pll and dro lnbs, there should be little if any signal difference provided the lnbs are of same or similar quality. A pll may perform better than a dro in instances where the signal is weak and narrow. The signal difference between a dro and pll should be similar on satellite transponders with video.

Providers named DishNetwork, Bell, Shaw, and Direct all use dro type lnbs. All of these providers would switch to pll type lnbs if there were a great signal advantage to them.

[armadillo_115]

When comparing pll and dro lnbs, there should be little if any signal difference provided the lnbs are of same or similar quality. A pll may perform better than a dro in instances where the signal is weak and narrow. The signal difference between a dro and pll should be similar on satellite transponders with video.

Providers named DishNetwork, Bell, Shaw, and Direct all use dro type lnbs. All of these providers would switch to pll type lnbs if there were a great signal advantage to them.

I suggested testing the DRO (without elbow) because a friend gave it to him long ago, and was probably of unknown condition.

My 8525RF arrived, installed, and in testing today.:D

Edit. Forgot to add: My 8525RF is replacing the same model lnb (8115) that Ime just had up. So far the 8525RF seems slightly better at locking that darn Panamericana channel. Time will tell.

[lme]

no elbow Vu+ gets same sig strenght as my very old norsat, but osmio shows same lower values as with the elbow.
So I'm back to my old norsat as i do not see any improuvements from dro.

[el bandido]

Vu+ did not care about signal strength meters. Their receivers will display wild and erroneous signal readings.

[lme]

Vu+ did not care about signal strength meters. Their receivers will display wild and erroneous signal readings.

I don't know, but my vu+4k can open channels with 20-30% signal, but osmio has snowee pic while showing 60% sig!!!

[armadillo_115]

no elbow Vu+ gets same sig strenght as my very old norsat, but osmio shows same lower values as with the elbow.
So I'm back to my old norsat as i do not see any improuvements from dro.

Well that suks.
But at least you now know that your 8115 isn't much good even as a spare.


I don't know, but my vu+4k can open channels with 20-30% signal, but osmio has snowee pic while showing 60% sig!!!

My OS MIO would lock the Panamericana channel on 116W even when the cheap Chinese receivers couldn't.

On the other hand

When using a Titanium C238 lnbf : The OS MIO would lock hardly any channels BELOW 3800MhZ. (as expected)
BUT The Cheap receiver would still lock many channels below 3800Mhz. Down to about 3700MhZ best I recall.
Go figure!

[el bandido]

I don't know, but my vu+4k can open channels with 20-30% signal, but osmio has snowee pic while showing 60% sig!!!

20-30% signal on your Vu+ equals what exactly? You can't compare signal percentages between two receivers and expect to have any idea how much stronger or how much better reception a receiver has.

You can compare reception between two receivers where one receiver is able to open a channel correctly while a different receiver cannot open the same channel, or opens it with error(s). But even doing this test is not an absolute proof one receiver is superior to the other, or one tuner is superior to the other because of variables. Almost always, without fail, a receiver that has a single antenna will have a bit better reception than another receiver that has two or more antenna connections.

[lme]

"Almost always, without fail, a receiver that has a single antenna will have a bit better reception than another receiver that has two or more antenna connections."
This explains why the tuner of osmio is less sensitive.
I did read one review about this tuner showing lower SNR compared with other boxes (not mentioned in the review).

[el bandido]

What signal/satellite you are comparing???

[lme]

What signal/satellite you are comparing???

My 10' dish has a good view of the arc from 30W to 135W, and trees blocking 125w & 127w.
edition finds few (~3) tps with snr at 15db or over. if the it senses a snr ~5db there is no signal, whereas vu finds a signal and/or pic.

[armadillo_115]

Ime... That sounds pretty conclusive, at least in your specific circumstance.

Maybe you got a weak OS Mio... an exceptional Vu... or some other variable in your system. There's a bit of magic to these electronic doodads that often leaves me scratching my head.

Or maybe the Vu is just more sensitive in general.

All I can say... If it works best for you, go with it! :bigthumbup:

[lme]

Ime... That sounds pretty conclusive, at least in your specific circumstance.

Maybe you got a weak OS Mio... an exceptional Vu... or some other variable in your system. There's a bit of magic to these electronic doodads that often leaves me scratching my head.

Or maybe the Vu is just more sensitive in general.

All I can say... If it works best for you, go with it! :bigthumbup:

From the very beginning I was suspecting that my osmio was a lemon for me: either bad quality from the manufacturer (see made in china items!), or was a bad refurbish, but i was charged full price for it.

[el bandido]

Shown below are scan results of my zero4k and mio plus. These files are also attached if you want to look at them.

mioplus
55.6W C-band_347ch_48tp_11-10-2022_20-45-05.xml
55.6W C-band_351ch_49tp_11-10-2022_21-22-02.xml
55.6W C-band_355ch_48tp_11-10-2022_20-54-39.xml
55.6W C-band_356ch_49tp_11-10-2022_20-49-55.xml

zero4k
55.6W C-band_293ch_46tp_11-10-2022_21-15-21.xml
55.6W C-band_300ch_48tp_11-10-2022_21-08-44.xml
55.6W C-band_317ch_48tp_11-10-2022_21-04-11.xml
55.6W C-band_334ch_46tp_11-10-2022_20-59-25.xml

FTA receivers should be fairly consistent, but blindscan on any fta receiver can be considered a crapshoot. My mio receivers are more consistent than the zero4k, and overall perform a bit better than the zero4k. I don't know of anyone else that has a zero4k that works better overall than a mio, but there may be some. Use what works best in your system since you are blessed to have more than one receiver!

The Zero4K is not capable of showing a signal in db or at least it can't on the drivers I have for it. There are two sets of tuner drivers for the mio receivers, and each driver may give a bit different result. A 15db (snr) signal is strong on a 10 foot c band satellite dish. All FTA type receivers are made in the cheapest way possible in order to maximize profits. Receiver model A showing a 20 db reading while receiver model B shows a 15 db signal reading on the exact same signal means little if anything. A satellite tuner by itself that can give accurate signal readings will cost more than most FTA receivers.

Most signal meters on fta receivers will not show a signal unless the tuner can lock it. DVB-S, DVB-S2, QPSK, 8PSK, APSK, and other modulation types require different amounts of signal to lock. For example, if you are trying to lock a DVB-S2, QPSK signal with a FEC of 9/10 then you will need around 6.5db (snr) to open it. Shown below is a partial list of the amount of signal needing to open a certain modulation type.

Standard Modulation FEC C/N [dB]

DVB-S2 QPSK
FEC db(snr)
1/4 2.4
1/3 1.2
2/5 0
1/2 1
3/5 2.2
2/3 3.1
3/4 4
4/5 4.6
5/6 5.2
8/9 6.2
9/10 6.5
DVB-S2 8PSK
FEC db(snr)
3/5 5.5
2/3 6.6
3/4 7.9
5/6 9.4
8/9 10.6
9/10 11
DVB-S2 16APSK
FEC db(snr)
2/3 9
3/4 10.2
4/5 11
5/6 11.6
8/9 12.9
9/10 13.1
DVB-S2 32APSK
FEC db(snr)
3/4 12.6
4/5 13.6
5/6 14.3
8/9 15.7
9/10 16.1

A DVB-S2 16APSK with a fec of 5/6 requires a signal strength around 11.6db(snr) to open. it is easy to get fooled on signal strengths and what a fta receiver displays because different transponders require different signal strengths to open.

[lme]

So, I think my guess that the tuner in my edision is a lemon is accurate.
I noticed that in to instances (so far), edision shows better snr than vu, but with snowy pic !!
vu shows lower snr but the pic is steady !!!

[lme]

So, it looks like my suspicion about a lemon tuner in my edision is thru.
I noticed in 2 tp (so far), edision shows better snr then vu, but the pic is snowy !!!
vu shows less snr, but the pic is steady !!!
1752417525

[armadillo_115]

I think there is something funky about the Panamericana signal. That's the one I have had so much trouble with.

But my Mio would lock it when my other receivers couldn't. Working ok so far since I changed lnb's... but the signal level is never very good.

BTW: Panamerican is available free online. Got to run now but I can dig up the link later if you need it.

[el bandido]

So, I think my guess that the tuner in my edision is a lemon is accurate.
I noticed that in to instances (so far), edision shows better snr than vu, but with snowy pic !!
vu shows lower snr but the pic is steady !!!

How did you manage to get your Vu+ Zero4K to show signal in db? Mine seems to only show in % which is not the same.

The transponder for Claro Cinema is DVB-S2 8PSK with a fec of 5/6. A signal such as this needs around 9.4 - 10db to open correctly, but your showing about 9db for signal.Your below the signal threshold to correctly open this channel. Plus it is biss encrypted which can cause other signal related problems.

If the Zero4K is working that much better for you then sell the MIO and get another Zero4K. Most likely, you need to do something to improve your signal a bit. LNB's can only do so much. LNB's are not miracle workers.

[lme]

How did you manage to get your Vu+ Zero4K to show signal in db? Mine seems to only show in % which is not the same.

The transponder for Claro Cinema is DVB-S2 8PSK with a fec of 5/6. A signal such as this needs around 9.4 - 10db to open correctly, but your showing about 9db for signal.Your below the signal threshold to correctly open this channel. Plus it is biss encrypted which can cause other signal related problems.

If the Zero4K is working that much better for you then sell the MIO and get another Zero4K. Most likely, you need to do something to improve your signal a bit. LNB's can only do so much. LNB's are not miracle workers.
few years ago, vu was showing snr in % & db, but now has % only option. I can only estimate the equivalent of % in db.
here are the snr from vu:
17526
17527
here is the edision pic for panamericana:
17528
..as for selling the edision i'll do it, not that i want another vu but just to recup some $...

[Megatron817]

few years ago, vu was showing snr in % & db, but now has % only option. I can only estimate the equivalent of % in db.
here are the snr from vu:
17526
17527
here is the edision pic for panamericana:
17528
..as for selling the edision i'll do it, not that i want another vu but just to recup some $...

Could be the low signal along with the tuner driver on the Open vix image. Try the signal with TNAP 4.2 It will have the no t2mi driver. No way I would sell my Mio4k box. Ive got a VU+ 4k and a mutant60. Mio4k is my fav.

[lme]

The same situation is on all 4 images:
tnap4.2, openbh, openvix & atv.
but i think the discussion about the receivers is out of the lnbf subject of this menu.
maybe a user with good results from a osmio receiver can share his own lnb settings for c-band & ku-band.
I just want to make sure my settings are good.
here they are:
1752917530

[el bandido]

LNB settings are for the dish system. There are no Good or Bad LNB antenna settings. There are antenna lnb settings that work, and those that don't. The lnb settings you have shown are probably correct for the lnb's you have.

Several things are in play when receiving a satellite signal. Some of them are:
lnb
dish - antenna
cabling
connectors
switches
receiver and tuner

All of the items listed above can add to or take away from the noise floor. A lot of times we will have enough satellite signal, but cannot receive it because our systems generate too much noise. This is supposedly why there is a signal to noise ratio (snr). Usually the easiest way to increase the satellite signal and get it above the noise is to increase the dish antenna size. But for a lot of us, that is not possible.

Trying to decrypt an encrypted signal is another bag of worms that can cause reception problems. Any cam is a complicated device and users in Europe will tell you some cams work better than others. People that are trying to decrypt channels are usually using information that is shared openly on the internet and is seen by everyone, including the people that are doing the encrypting. So it's easy to see why encrypted channels can have reception problems when you try to decrypt them.

Shown below are screencaps of a channel on 16apsk transponder with 5/6 fec. A transponder like this takes 11-12 db to open. If you watch the signal meter and move the dish, you will probably see 11 db, then nothing. The fta receiver is working just fine, but the requirements of the transponder require a lot of signal. Modulation types have a lot to do with reception. When you have signal problems, modulation type and transponder fec should be the first things you look at.

17531

17532

[lme]

I got involved in this hobby in 2015, when I got this dish system from an old italian person, located couple miles away from me. This is what I found in his system:17533
I assume all the hardware dates beck to nineteen O summer era !!
I could read the name of the dish as being StarTrack brand.
I went a step up and replaced his corotor with a corotor 2, as I need to get the ku side also in the mix.
The old lnb found is still in service, and is working better then norsat 5115 dro, for witch i need an elbow to install it, and of course losing ~3db from the snr.
I understand that there are a lot of variable involved in the reception starting with the weather down to hardware and software. As I was suspected, there is no fixed recipe for lnb settings.

[el bandido]

VuPlus Zero 4K should have db signal readings again.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Next PLi image update should include it. Oe Alliance images will probably adopt it too.

Hopefully this db feature will be useful even if it is wildly inaccurate. :smiley14:

[ArloG]

Hey guys. Not intending on hijacking this discussion.
Ime. You've proven solidly that your VU+ can snag signals that the mio can't. I wonder two things.
IF your VU+ tuner is simply more sensitive or if the soldered in mio tuner may be either not as "hot" (or cold in degrees kelvin in the old days) or if it's perhaps defective.
In other words. If you put 2 mio's side by side with the same image, if one shows a higher dB reading.
It would be cool if EB could try that even if he only had a mio and a mio+.

Another thing. EB, you know. Is the signal strength display a rudimentary value that you code into an image or if the actual tuner received strength coming from the data stream is converted into a value? Maybe I'm off on a tangent. 0 dB is obviously...nothing received. But for example on my mio, transponders on 99W blow in showing 17 dB+ and the bargraph is maxed out.
Is that something that one coder could say.....let's make signal capture (where pixellation occurs) 9 dB and 15 dB is saturation. Another might decide 6 dB is lock and 20 dB is saturation. Good question?

I don't know. Maybe a DRO vs PLL could perform the same if the AFC of the DRO tracks properly. Always wondered how they work internally if the ambient temperature fluctuated widely between day and night. Kind of like an old boat anchor ham radio receiver needs to warm up to stabilize. But ones with PLL synthesizers and crystal ovens turn on rock solid. And keep on rockin'.

It was mentioned that I should get an ortho and a couple of Norsats. Then I'm told that there isn't a phenomenal difference between that setup and a quality LNBF. I was ready to get a bread bag and spool of fishing line and vacuum the pull another run of coax. As it stands I didn't jump for that Harvard ortho and pair of Norsat lnb's. Whew! Comments?

Still trying to figure out something else. In the fall and spring when the earth tilts. Probably 1-2 EST. Sats obliterate like clockwork. 101W will reduce signal about 1 dB/minute. Then it's gone for a half-hour, 45 minutes. 103W awhile later. Same thing. And on down the arc.Same thing in the fall.
Or take 127W for an example. Around midnight it will die for a bit.
But looking at stellar charts I use for my astronomy kick. The sun is nowhere inline with 127. Maybe I'm missing something.
I even adjust the declination on my 12 footer in the spring and fall to keep signals peaked.

FYI. on my mio4k. on C Band 9-9.2 dB seems to be the threshold where pixellation and signal lock loss happens.
On ku I can dip all the way down in the 5's. Is that typical?

......sit back. enjoy the flight. we're not headed to tripoli or havana!

[el bandido]

As far as satellite signals are concerned, No consumer fta receiver does an accurate job of displaying signal strength. The signal from the satellite does not magically get stronger or weaker. This needs to be understood first!

What we see in signal strength on a fta receiver can be controlled in part by the drivers that the manufacturer produces. These drivers are closed source. For example, Edision had the MIO receiver's signal strength of 100 set to equal 25db. In other words, 100% = 25db. I enjoyed this because at the time, most of our signal devices (apps) that could connect to enigma2 receivers showed in %. So I could adjust the dish and never hit 100%.

Then people complained about the Edision MIO's, saying they performed poorly because the the signal percentage was lower than their old receiver. Not really wanting to lose sales over such nonsense, Edision moved the MIO's percent where 100% = 15db. So today, when you hit 100% of signal on your MIO, your db reading is 15. The db signal can continue to climb, but the signal in % will not go above 100. Understand how this works. Satellite Signal Readings in db or % in a consumer fta receiver do not mean much unless you are trying to align a dish or something similar.

Things have gotten somewhat better as compared to years earlier. The MIO, MIO+, and Octagon SF8008 will all produce similar db readings on most satellite signals. Any Vu+ receiver will be all over the place, especially in db readings. Whether the signal reading accuracy will improve or deteriorate on future receivers is unknown. Hopefully it will improve.

Most fta satellite receiver tuners have a maximum signal strength of -30dbm, and a minimum of -60dbm. Some satellite cards go to -70dbm on the low end, so you get to see a weak signal longer, but you cannot really use it. This means that fta consumer satellite signals are pretty much on equal footing in the signal reception area. It is true some satellite receivers are better than others when it comes to signal reception, but this is almost always at the bottom end which is marginal or weak signals.

Connectors mean something in fta. In general, a lnb with one connector will have a slight signal advantage as compared to a two connector lnb. A fta receiver with one antenna connector usually has a slight advantage over another receiver with multiple connectors. The only time you will notice or see the difference is weak or signals.

Then you have a minimum signal to lock.
Different satellite transponders will need a different signal strength to lock. If a consumer fta receiver cannot lock, then usually the signal meter shows 0 even though a signal actually exists --the signal is just to weak to lock. Charts are available that show how much signal is needed to lock. For example, a DVB-S2 8psk signal with a fec of 9/10 will take 11 db to lock. If the signal falls much below that level then the receiver cannot lock and displays 0. So you may see a signal strength of 70-80 percent one minute, then 0 and wonder what the hell is going on. OR receiver A won't lock it because the signal is marginal but receiver B does lock it and shows somewhere between 70-100%!. Then you think receiver A sux and receiver B is something glorious!

The Amiko Mini4K is currently the worst receiver for signal strength that I own. That thing produces somewhere between 80-100% on every transponder. You can move the dish down to where the signal is very marginal, only 2-3 db on a DVB-S transponder and the Amiko Mini4K will still show 80%. Keep this in mind when you are trying to compare receivers using signal strengths.

[armadillo_115]

....

It was mentioned that I should get an ortho and a couple of Norsats. Then I'm told that there isn't a phenomenal difference between that setup and a quality LNBF. I was ready to get a bread bag and spool of fishing line and vacuum the pull another run of coax. As it stands I didn't jump for that Harvard ortho and pair of Norsat lnb's. Whew! Comments?



Aw come on and take one for the team. I'd rather ya spend YOUR money and post the results later. lol

[el bandido]

Need more signal? Get a bigger dish. If you cannot get a bigger dish, then look at lnb replacement. There is not any magic in most lnbs. Some perform better than others, and there are lnbs that work correctly and lnbs that don't work correctly. Know WHY you are replacing a lnb before spending money.

Intermittent signal problems are usually not in the lnb. LNB's usually work or they don't, but there are rare exceptions. Intermittent signal loss can usually be traced to cabling or connectors. Lots of times moisture is the cause of intermittent signal loss. The least expensive thing to do is check ALL connectors first. Look for loose connections, poor fittings, or moisture inside connectors. Cables should be tested correctly when possible before replacing them.

[ArloG]

Aw come on and take one for the team. I'd rather ya spend YOUR money and post the results later. lol

ohhh that paddle-dillo. he think totem pole aliveee. lol.

i'm so tight, only dogs hear it when i fart...

[el bandido]

Shown below are a couple of Norsat 8525 RF lnbs with feed.
17691


17692


17693


I will install these lnbs on a 10 foot mesh dish when time permits. I would not pay money for these parts if cheaper parts would do the same job.

[armadillo_115]

Shown below are a couple of Norsat 8525 RF lnbs with feed. ...

... I will install these lnbs on a 10 foot mesh dish when time permits. I would not pay money for these parts if cheaper parts would do the same job.

I like the ONE I bought. Works better than any of the cheaper (new or used) lnb's I tried previously. I'm considering an ESAT 2022-150, C-Band PLL LNB for my next experiment. About the same price as the 8525 on Ebay.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[el bandido]

PLL lnbs require more power as compared to DRO lnbs. PLL lnbs will not help much if any when watching satellite tv. PLL lnbs may help with radio stations and data on transponders with a symbol rate of 1000 or less.