How To Look For & Find 5G Interference in C Band

[el bandido]

Note: This is a split thread from here: [Only registered and activated users can see links]


For about the last 5 weeks I have started to have problems with 5G interference on my BUD. Getting worse by the day. I was using a BSC621 C/Ku Combo LNBF. And that worked great for me for C and Ku. But i started noticing pixelation creeping in. I checked online to see if 5G was finally in my area, and it was. And then it got worse and worse. Checked every possible "other" issue, connectors, coax, etc..

So i decided to order the Titanium C138 5G Filter LNBF.

I have a 10 Ft Winegard Pinnacle BUD and lucky for me, i have the manual so i know the focal distance right from the specs. Set that and had to do a best guess for the rotation of the LNBF. Turns out i was off quite a bit at first. After a few adjustments got that just right too. Its a bit of trial and error for me. The dish has to be moved to extreme west for me to be able to reach it with a ladder barely. And no sat signals there. So i have to set it, run the dish to true south and check thats its horizontal.

Anyway, this Titanium C138 5G Filter LNBF totally fixed my 5G issues. Completely 100%. Before i could get say CIVI on 119.0W but it would pixellate enough to make it unwatchable. Over on 127.0W i could not even get a signal on the NFL /Mav TV Transponder. After installing the Titanium C138 5G Filter LNBF, no problems whatsoever, CIVI etc plays perfect. I scan in everything on on 127.0W, same on 103.0W. 3 Sats tested, everything is great.

If you have 5G issues like i did, i would totally recommend this product. I am a happy camper having my C Band back to normal. I lost Ku Band on my BUD by changing, but i will add a Ku Sidecar LNBF come spring.


:thumbup:


Excellent that it worked out for you, but it was a crap-shoot at best. I have seen others do the same thing only to find they now have a brand new spare lnbf that doesn't work. Another thing I have yet to figure out is how one checks to see if 5G is available in their area without using any radio equipment. 5G consists of multiple bands with only part of the mid-band being near the c band satellite frequencies. This has been confusing for many people and has led to errors or purchases that either did not work or were not needed.

For some years, I assisted with work on mountaintops including radio maintenance, the installation of towers and the installation of antennas. Interference is common on mountaintops, and the first step that was always performed when dealing with interference issues was to locate and identify the source of the interference. To date, I have yet to see anyone in the satellite hobby do this.

Usually filters cut signal reception, so care should be taken when adding them. It doesn't do much good to add a 20db filter when the carrier you are trying to filter is 25db at your antenna. Quality built spectrum analyzers and other properly constructed directional finding tools can be very expensive. Depending on the situation, the offending signal may need to be measured on the satellite dish to determine the amount of filtering needed.

Things will probably continue pretty much they way there are now in the c band satellite hobby. Someone decides they are getting 5G mid-band interference and will buy parts that either fixes the problem or not. Then these solutions that work or not will be discussed because we try to help each other.

Simple tools including a directional c band beam antenna can be purchased on the Internet for about the same or similar price as the 5G lnbf. To me, it is better to make a small or even large investment in some tools that can show the exact frequency the c band interference is on and where the interference is located instead of throwing money at parts that may/may not work. But this is a hobby with no real right or wrong answers, and each person has a right to his own ideas.

[ArloG]

I don't think 5G will hit my area for a long time. If it does I have a house blocking anyplace where towers could be. South of me is state forest lands that go on and on and on.
Anyway. Over on satguys there is a thread discussing using a spectrum analyzer to check if 5G interference is of any concern. True EB. A good SA is $$$$. Sometimes $$$$$.
Using an SDR radio. In my case an SDRPlay RSP2 that can receive up to 2GHz should certainly be able to be tapped into the LO output of a c-band lnbf.
I kind of thought of doing that when 'sneaking up' on unknown satellite locations where a receiver won't do a signal lock.
My spectrum analyzer has a home on my work bench and only really moves for cleaning.
Anyways.....

Othernet got me sparked. They're using their Bullseye ku lnbf without a dish pointed at SES-2 87W. No dish!
It would seem a similar setup using a c-band lnbf with a waveguide and bias-t connected to a SDR radio and spectrum analyzer application could be used for signal hounding 5G sources. Maybe not.
Then. In my area at least. If a source of interference were pinpointed off angle of the dish. Perhaps something could be fabricated to block it out. A framed screen grounded to the earth? I dunno.
Considering the source would be line of sight. Hmmm.

[el bandido]

It's good that someone is at least discussing the use of a spectrum analyzer. To do the job properly, you will need a small beam antenna that covers at least 3-5 GHz, and a portable analyzer of some sort. Trying to connect some SDR thingy to a lnb that is installed on a dish could yield some useful results, providing it worked. But the first step should be identifying the source for the interference. I have yet to see anyone do the first step.


The mid-band cellular frequencies that can interfere with c band satellite will not be in DVB-S or DVB-S2 format. The frequencies that can cause c band interference may also be outside the frequency range of a c band lnb. I can't think of anything worse than using equipment that gives false readings or equipment that is unable to receive the frequencies the source of interference is using.

[mememeth]

look at r and l eletronice for the new tiny sa ultra spectrum analizer , then put a small yagi, pinpoint the source , tiny sa ultra about $ 129.

[el bandido]

look at r and l eletronice for the new tiny sa ultra spectrum analizer , then put a small yagi, pinpoint the source , tiny sa ultra about $ 129.

Thanks for the info! A small, cellular-WiFi yagi type antenna might be had for around forty dollars more.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


I purchased the ALGA Blue 5G filter from Rick and it instantly fixed my 5G issues. I contemplated going with other solutions but anything else would only be temporary with the Phase 2 completion of the spectrum now being December 2023.

Also the other inexpensive solutions are only for Phase 1 which would be short term and a waste of money. You truly need a 5G filter and not just an LNB/LNBF that does not have any Band pass filtering included. In addition having to go from a Corotor to an LNBF that doesn't do Ku is also a consideration. The only concrete solutions are a real 5G filter and the ALGA Blue 5G Filter is the most economical one and proven to work. It is what many in the Broadcast industry are using with great success.


Here's a link to get the ALGA 5G Blue Filter. [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Emil


So nothing works except a 5G filter if we are to believe the above quote. No effort or suggestion to try and locate the interference or anything else. Just buy Rick's Blue filter and all will be well. The Titanium 5G lnbf cannot be a solution at this site because Rick doesn't sell them, even though this solution is mentioned in the thread.

I am almost 100 percent certain that some users have experienced 5G interference on c band. I am almost also 100 percent certain that something else besides purchasing 5G interference parts could have solved or fixed the problem. Those who purchase 5G parts need to remember that they Are Not Returnable or Refundable unless proven defective. Just because it doesn't fix your problem is not a valid reason to return the 5G parts for a refund!

[el bandido]

Transponders with viewable channels can still be found around 3.7GHz or 3700MHz. Those that have installed North American 5G interference filters can no longer get these transponders. If you install the ALGA 5G Blue Filter, then you won't get any transponders below 4 GHz or 4000 MHz. Filters almost always reduce the satellite signal by at least a db or two, which means your dish becomes somewhat smaller when cellular 5G filters are installed.

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[Megatron817]

I got 5g here or an under size dish for that channel on 105w 3712 v. Shows 11.8 db but Picture is breaking up really bad and unwatchable for sure.

[el bandido]

I have also had problems/issues with the 105w 3712 v transponder. At times, it will show a good signal in db but Picture breaks up really bad. Is it 5G? I dunno as I have no way to test (yet).

Last night, I was watching one of my Favorite channels at 65w, c band.Suddenly in the middle of my program, the picture started breaking up with sparkles and glitches. Finally the tv picture became unwatchable. All other transponders for the satellite had normal signal, so maybe this was also 5G? The c band frequency for this transponder is 4705MHz. 5G will be blamed for almost every signal issue from now on.

[Terryl]

Below you will find a interactive 5G map, you can find one (or more) closest to you and see if it's in-line or off to the side of your dish.

If 70 to 90 degrees off to the side you should not have problems, unless it's very close by.

Some have seen good results with a conical shaped scalar ring, it helps reject the side to side signals a bit better.

But if out in front of the receive beamwidth of the dish your using, you may be hosed for those channels affected by the 5G signals, but there may be hope, as more and more new satellites are launched they should have most if not all transponders higher in frequency to help with this boondoggle.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Note: I have also seen the 5 GHz WIFI signals from some cheap routers affect the signals on a "C" band dish, one customer of mine had "C" band problems, I found out it was the router across the street, it was in direct line with the "C" band dish, it had a signal spur right in the middle of the "C" band channels, (this was found with a spectrum analyzer that I don't have access to anymore) it was an ISP provided router so a quick call to them provided a new router, all was fixed after that.

[Megatron817]

Using the map I got a 5g verizon/att tower a couple miles south and another one a couple miles west of my location. That's not good being directly south. Signal coming directly in my dish.

[el bandido]

Unfortunately, the map doesn't list the 5G frequencies for a particular tower. None of the maps I have seen are 100% accurate either.

A partial list of Verizon 5G bands are: n2, n5, n48, n66, n77, n260, n261. Bands n48 and n77 are c band. The rest of the Verizon 5G bands should not be near enough in frequency to cause a c band satellite antenna any problems. So saying a particular tower is 5G really doesn't mean anything.

The mid-band cellular frequencies that can cause problems for a c band satellite dish do not travel as far as other cellular mid-band frequencies such as the 2500MHz n41 band. To combat or makeup for the loss, beamforming is used, which makes the antennas a bit directional. Beramforming technology has been around since the 1940's.

I also have a cellular tower located about 1 kilometer or a thousand meters from the c band satellite dish. This cell tower is sitting almost dead center of my arc at about 87 degrees w. Will be interesting to see what problems (if any) this causes in the future. Verizon, ATT, and T-Mobile are on this tower.

[Terryl]

If you can get the towers co-ordinates you can look it up on the FCC data base, they should have a listing of the frequency's in use.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Terryl]

There is also something called Intermix" and "Inter-mod" this is where frequency "A" mixes with frequency "B"(or C D E F so on) creating a new frequency "X", we get it all the time in the microwave relay and broadcast world.

[el bandido]

If you can get the towers co-ordinates you can look it up on the FCC data base, they should have a listing of the frequency's in use.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It is common for a corporation or company to buy licenses and not use them --OR use them at a later date. Websites are of limited use at best.

There is no way out of having some test equipment unless you want to guess. Then you still need to know Where the interference is coming from, and how strong it is on your dish.

[MikeB]

There's one on Ebay right now for $175, if somebody wants to try it. Big savings over Rick's.
[Only registered and activated users can see links] m4tCPVLIj9t%2BZFE7ixs%2BvI8lJ8mddK3dYlLFi9Lu%2BUJQ Ei9pkFErAt446JGrERiXivsC%2FozLynjpwldtp1cxBn0cWuRU rebOVx1X0llAoeH%2FSjATm5JMP0H7UXNtj%2FI1Y0hexn03tj YDFsBFExGTXXXBBRTHcZQHuQoojGJOHxTZoR%2FvCwh0bKQPXe V4%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8a3zbKtYQ

[el bandido]

Rick is always overpriced on most of his stuff. But if I'm going to pay a hundred and seventy for something, it would be an analyzer. I would rather move my dish than install two filters, providing of course, that moving the dish would work.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

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[el bandido]

An android cell phone may also provide some clues. Dial *#*#4636#*#*, then select phone info. Scroll down a bit and you will see a listing of every frequency the phone can see. Sometimes it takes 20-30 minutes for the frequency list to fully populate. The phone screenshot shown below is showing 5G service. But NONE of the listed frequencies are anywhere close to our c band satellite frequencies. In order for this to work, your Android phone needs to be capable of receiving n48 and n77, n78 bands.

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[mememeth]

go to r and l electronics, tiny sa ultra 200 hz to 6ghz, in stock less $$ , known brand , updates and support by mfg, go to groups io tiny sa

[el bandido]

go to r and l electronics, tiny sa ultra 200 hz to 6ghz, in stock less $$ , known brand , updates and support by mfg, go to groups io tiny sa

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

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[armadillo_115]

So, if you hook a TinySA to an C Band lnb for checking RI... what size attenuator would be needed?

Hopefully I won't have 5G interference, but be good to know if it happens.

[el bandido]

WHY would you need an attenuator??? Sort of lost here....

[armadillo_115]

WHY would you need an attenuator??? Sort of lost here....

Some info such as the following makes me wonder if an lnb would be too strong for a TinySA. If I ever get one... don't want to fry it.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mememeth]

dont hook the tiny sa to the lnd, just put on the rod or yagi antenna and look for interfering signal when your tv has noise or pixel artifacts.

[armadillo_115]

Thanks Mememeth. that will work for finding direction of RI.
But, I was thinking of hooking the tinysa to the lnb on the bud to view the full spectrum received there as well.

[mememeth]

sing the tinysato look at / thru lnb ,you should usee a dr hd or birddog like item, they pass and or supply voltage to the lnb, useing tha tinysa ultra that way would let all the factory installed smoke out of it

[Titanium]

Connecting to an LNBF:
Use a splitter rated 2GHz with one port power passing (or a 2 port power passing with a voltage block on one port). Connect the power passing leg to the STB to power the LNBF and select the polarity. Connect the non-power passing port to the Tiny SA. No need to attenuate as the internal attenuation should be fine. If you find the internal attenuator is not enough, there are some resellers on Amazon that package a selection of attenuator values or buy a step attenuator on Ebay or Amazon.

Personally, for signal sniffing, I use a 3+ element Yagi-Uda and 65dB step attenuator. Am attaching a photo of a set-up that I use for Fox Hunt signal tracking. An Arrow 3 element VHF Yagi-Uda, 65dB attenuator, Malchite SDR. For sniffing n77 signals, try a WiMax panel or Yagi, often found cheap at thrift stores and Ebay. [Only registered and activated users can see links]

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[armadillo_115]

Connecting to an LNBF:
Use a splitter rated 2GHz with one port power passing (or a 2 port power passing with a voltage block on one port). Connect the power passing leg to the STB to power the LNBF and select the polarity. Connect the non-power passing port to the Tiny SA. No need to attenuate as the internal attenuation should be fine. If you find the internal attenuator is not enough, there are some resellers on Amazon that package a selection of attenuator values or buy a step attenuator on Ebay or Amazon....

17569

Awesome!
I already have a splitter set- up like that for running a receiver in loop-out, so no extra items needed there
I don't foresee doing much signal sniffing... so being able to ALSO use the TinySA on my lnb's gives me more incentive to fork out the dough. :th_thumbs20up:

[el bandido]

The price you see ($129.95) Is Not the price you pay.


Date Ordered: Tuesday 03 January, 2023

Products
------------------------------------------------------
1 x JETSTREAM SMABNC (SMABNC) = $3.50
1 x TINYSA TINYSAULTRA (TINYSAULTRA) = $129.95
1 x JETSTREAM JT4120 (JT4120) = $3.95
1 x JETSTREAM SMAUHF (SMAUHF) = $4.95
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: $142.35
United States Postal Service (Priority Mail®): $11.00
Sales Tax: $10.73
Total: $164.08
***Shipping charges are only an estimate. If shipping is more, we will notify you before shipping***

[el bandido]

The Tiny SA Ultra was delivered a couple of days ago. I think most people that purchase one of these analyzers will find it easy to use. I have a couple of log periodic (yagi) antennas that are laying in the floor. These antennas will be installed later, but I could use one on the Tiny SA if needed.

A quick test of three local cell towers shows a small group of signals in the 3.9 GHz range. These signals have been identified as coming from the cell towers by doing a simple drive test using a vertical antenna that came with the Tiny SA. Having a small analyzer like this to "see" things makes a World of difference!

A cell tower will be seen on the analyzer as a group of spikes that are spaced out across a given frequency range. I usually set the analyzer to scan from 600 MHZ to 5 GHz. When I find interesting signals, I cut the scan range. A tour of 3 cell towers showed about the same groups of signals, and all three cell towers have a group around 3.9 GHz, or 3900 MHz.

The Tiny SA does not have an easy way to do a screenshot, so I used a cell phone camera. Shown below is a group of spikes from a cell tower located around a Kilometer from my satellite dish for c band. This cell tower is within a couple degrees of due South. I have antennas aimed at this cell tower for my home internet. The Tiny SA was connected to one of these antennas when the photo shown below was taken. The signals around 3.9 GHz are about as strong as the rest of the signals coming from this cell tower. This is very interesting to me, and I would not have known about it except for the Tiny SA analyzer.

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[armadillo_115]

....I have antennas aimed at this cell tower for my home internet. The Tiny SA was connected to one of these antennas when the photo shown below was taken. The signals around 3.9 GHz are about as strong as the rest of the signals coming from this cell tower. This is very interesting to me, and I would not have known about it except for the Tiny SA analyzer.

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Did your home internet switch to that band?

[mememeth]

glad u like it, it could be put near u with a longer antenna, then when the tv image breaks up u can glance at the tinysa and see the signal, enjoy,

[el bandido]

Excellent idea Mememeth! I have no c band reception issues at the present time.

A map shows T-Mobile Did Not buy any satellite c band spectrum for my area. Also, my T-Mobile gateway does not support c band operations.

Shown below is a scan using a vertical antenna outside. The scan shown earlier was connected to an antenna mounted on the tower and aimed at the cell tower. This explains the big difference in signal strength.

In the photo below, you will set three sets of spikes. The set to the far left is the 600-900 MHz frequencies that are on the cell tower. These are the tallest spikes and also the strongest. The middle set of spikes is the cell bands around 1900-2500 MHz or 1.9-2.5 GHz. The set of spikes to the far right is satellite c band signals on the cell tower that are around 3900 MHz according to this analyzer. It should be noted that the c band cell signals are about as strong as the 1900-2500 signals, but are not as strong as the 600-900 MHz cell signals.

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[mememeth]

i dont know how to send a pdf file, but there is a work in progress project to make a flow chart for the tinysa ultra by , david massey , go to groups.io tinysa it is 5 pager right now, and people have thouble with the mio, ha. this msg was to go to el bandito,

[el bandido]

You should be able to attach a .pdf file here in this thread. If not, zip it then attach it.

[mememeth]

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[mememeth]

hope i did it correctly , tinysa

[mememeth]

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when printing out this pdf, omly print pages 1 thru 5, 6 thru 10 are dummy to be edited later

[el bandido]

Using the Tiny Sa Ultra shows there is c band frequencies, mainly in the 3.8-3.9 GHz range coming from the cell tower across the street. Shown below is a picture of the cell tower as seen behind one of my antennas that is actually aimed at the tower. This picture was taken around 40 feet from the ground.

The c band signal from the cell tower was measured using the antennas on my tower. My antennas that are aimed at the cell tower are advertised at around 10db of gain, and show a nice, strong signal level of about -35dbm. Down on the ground, and using a small vertical antenna, the cell tower c band frequencies drop to about -60, -70 dbm. So there is a big difference in signal strength when comparing the antenna on my tower that is aimed at the cell tower, and the small vertical antenna on the ground in front of the c band satellite dish.

Further testing was done using a small beam antenna that has a frequency range of 600 MHz to 6 GHz. This antenna shows the c band signal to be strong when it is aimed at the cell tower, and weaker when the antenna is turned away from the cell tower. The 3.8-3.9 GHz c band signals also get stronger the closer you get to the cell tower.

No signal tests have been done on my c band satellite dish. C band Satellite signals on 87w, 89w, and 91w play without any issues, with no pixelation, break-ups...etc. I did not even suspect there were any c band signals on that cell tower, and would not have known about it without the Tiny SA Ultra.

Clutter and distance helps. The picture shows I am surrounded by trees, plus the cell tower is at least 1 kilometer away in air distance.There is no need for me to re-locate the satellite dish or buy any interference parts at this time. A spectrum analyzer is very useful when looking for interference sources. I think it is better to buy a cheap analyzer first to see exactly what is going on instead of buying interference parts such as lnbs or filters and hoping that they work!

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[el bandido]

There could also be another scenario where a c band satellite antenna is getting interference from the 5G c band, but the interference is not coming from the cell tower. For example, a 5G c band Internet gateway could be placed in a window that overlooks or is above a c band satellite dish. A satellite dish is pointed up, so it stands to reason that an interfering signal source needs to be above the dish. Getting the c band Internet gateway relocated to an area away from the dish might help in a situation such as this. But you have to know for certain where the inference is coming from before you can deal with it.

Using a cell phone that is connected to a c band 5G frequency while standing in front of a c band satellite dish would probably have no noticeable effect on the satellite operations of the c band dish.

[mememeth]

pdf menu tinsa ultre update, now 12 pages, study well. tom 17594

[el bandido]

More parts have been purchased that should allow the TinySA analyzer to "see" the signals coming directly from the c band lnb. This will be little bit more messy because the analyzer will read the frequencies that the lnb has down-converted. These frequencies will be in the 950-2150 MHz range for my lnb. The frequencies will have to be read from the analyzer, then calculated using the lnb l.o. frequency. This is no big deal, but it is not as easy as reading what the analyzer displays.

I think it was assumed that the frequencies between 3.8 to about 4.0 GHz would not be used until the end of 2023. Apparently this is not the case for my neighborhood, or the TinySA Ultra doesn't know what frequency it is displaying. All of the other frequencies on the TinySA have been found where they would expect to be found, So I am fairly certain that the 3.8-3.9 GHz frequencies the TinySA shows coming from the cell tower are correct.

It would not do any good to purchase a Titanium C138 LNBF which specifically is designed to filter out 3.5 to 3.8 GHz when the interference is above 3.8 GHz. This may explain why some have purchased this lnb and had it solve their reception issues. But others have purchased it and still have the interference or reception issue. If you don't have any way of checking the frequencies, then you have no way of knowing if the parts you purchased are the parts you need!

[mememeth]

new final tinysa ultra by david, 17597

[armadillo_115]

Excellent idea Mememeth! I have no c band reception issues at the present time.

A map shows T-Mobile Did Not buy any satellite c band spectrum for my area. Also, my T-Mobile gateway does not support c band operations.

Shown below is a scan using a vertical antenna outside. The scan shown earlier was connected to an antenna mounted on the tower and aimed at the cell tower. This explains the big difference in signal strength.

In the photo below, you will set three sets of spikes. The set to the far left is the 600-900 MHz frequencies that are on the cell tower. These are the tallest spikes and also the strongest. The middle set of spikes is the cell bands around 1900-2500 MHz or 1.9-2.5 GHz. The set of spikes to the far right is satellite c band signals on the cell tower that are around 3900 MHz according to this analyzer. It should be noted that the c band cell signals are about as strong as the 1900-2500 signals, but are not as strong as the 600-900 MHz cell signals.

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Elbandido, is it possible to narrow the band range on your TinySA so as to see more detail on those 3900mhz signals?

Curious to see how wide spread the interference would be if the signals were actually entering into your C Band equipment.
Thanks.

[el bandido]

You can narrow the band range down as much as you want.

The next step will be looking into the lnb and see what kind of signals ARE entering the lnb. Just waiting on the proper parts to do this...

[el bandido]

5G C band interference parts Are Not Refundable!

This means if you buy lnb's or other parts such as filters, there will be no refund if the parts do not solve the interference! Below is One example.

From Titanium Satellite website:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]!/C138-LNBF-Single-Output-3-8-4-2GHz-5G-Red-Band-Pass-Filter/p/412492561/category=6743545


We accept and refund for new and unused or tested defective LNBFs. Our product is not intended to be used as a trouble shooting or system testing device that is returned after testing. We will not refund if our bench testing indicates that a returned product, with defective claim is functioning as designed. When a returned LNBF is tested on our bench and determined to be operating within specification, the buyer is responsible for all inbound and outbound return shipping and handling costs. Returns requests and refunds will only be processed directly from Titanium Satellite. Tested items can be reclaimed within 30 days after we email the results status notification. Unclaimed products will be considered abandoned and may be disposed of after 30 days.

I cannot blame them for doing this. Once you install the parts, they are used and are no longer new. It's that simple. It would be nice if some sort of a test kit could be rented, where you pay only for the parts you need. Doubt that happens though. Unless you want to take chances or gamble, understand what you need and why before you buy any interference parts.

[el bandido]

Basically what happens is your noise floor gets raised when a c band satellite dish gets interference from cellular 5G C band frequencies. Most of our satellite services are in DVB-S or DVB-S2 format. 5G c band cellular is neither DVB-S or DVB-S2, so you could say our fta receivers see the 5G C band cellular as noise.

So let's say your noise floor on your c band dish antenna looks something like this Without 5G c band cellular signals:
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We could give this as an example of what the noise floor looks like on the same c band dish With 5G c band cellular signals:
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The job of the 5G C band interference filter is to return the noise floor to a level that is usable. Really nothing more than that. Some of the unwanted noise may be filtered out using electronics (5G C band interference lnbs) and or mechanical signal filters.

A mechanical interference filter more or less puts up a barrier where the wanted signals can get in, and the unwanted signals cannot get in (rejected). A good mechanical filter for c band satellite microwave will cost money, but it is very efficient at its job.

As for narrowing the signal down on the TinySA Ultra, the second picture shown above was taken using a range of 3.9 GHz to 3.95 GHz coming from my local cell tower using a gain antenna. You may adjust the range up or down to suit your needs.

[el bandido]

I now have the proper connectors to connect the TinySA analyzer directly to the lnb. Now I have an idea an idea of what signals the fta satellite receiver "sees".

Note: Protect the analyzer from any voltage that may come form the lnb. Failure to do this will result in a dead analyzer!

The signals around 3900 MHz that appear to be coming from the local cell tower bother me a little bit. I wanted to see how much interference my satellite dish is getting with these signals. The first thing to do was get an idea of what signals are currently coming from the cell tower and some idea of signal strength.

For this test, we will use 3.9365 GHz (3936.5 MHZ)
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Next, The analyzer is connected to the satellite lnb, The dish was moved to 87w which is almost aimed directly at the cell tower. My lnb has a l.o. of 5750 MHz, and and a frequency range of about 1.2 GHz. This makes my line frequencies roughly 950-2150.

To see what is on 87w, I set the analyzer to scan 950-2150 MHz.
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We are looking for 3936.5 MHZ or something real close to it. So we have: 5750-3936 = 1814.
Look closely at the above picture and you will see 1.8132GHz (1813.2 MHZ) in the top left hand corner. This frequency is also marked with a symbol above the top of it for identification.

Next question would be: "Is this a cell tower frequency on the satellite dish?". To answer this, we move the dish a couple of degrees and see what happens.
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Moving the dish roughly two degrees puts the possible cell tower frequency down in the noise floor. I don't have anything to worry about right now.


The last question would be: " Is a signal with a frequency of 3936.5 MHZ really coming from the cell tower? I can't 100% answer that question, but the analyzer seems to think so. Several cell towers have been tested in my area with this analyzer, and all of them show roughly the same group of 3.8 - 3.9 GHz signals coming from the cell tower. These towers are not in an area that has licensed earth stations or large commercial c band dishes. So I assume the analyzer is reading correctly.

[el bandido]

There is a transponder on 105w that has a frequency around 3712 MHz, vertical polarization. This transponder contains one tv channel, and has been suspected of having 5G interference, which may or may not be true. At any rate, sometimes this channel will play fine for me, but other times it will pixelate and have artifacts that make it UN-watchable.

The analyzer works the same as scanning a satellite: You can only scan one polarity at a time, and both polarities need to be scanned in order to "see" everything. For the analyzer, I select a horizontal or vertical transponder using the receiver's remote then let the analyzer scan. Then I repeat for the opposite polarity.

A vertical scan of 105w shows the 3712 transponder almost all the way to the right of the screen sitting by itself.
17614

One thing I notice about this transponder is it has a shorter spike than the rest of the transponders to the left on the vertical side of this satellite. Another thing to notice is the 3712 transponder is sitting pretty much by itself. You would expect to have signal spikes all around it or even above it if this transponder was getting 5G c band interference.


So I conclude that my problems with the channel on 3712 MHz are not due to cellular c band interference, But it does have problems. Shown below is a screencap of the channel with interference. Not shown but also happening is the signal will jump from around 15 db to around 10db (snr). The picture also freezes at times.

17615

[armadillo_115]

Warning!!! The following is speculation.
Is this possible?

With the TinySA setup parallel to a receiver as described previously. (Or better to use a power inserter instead of a receiver?)
Insert a splitter between the multi-switch and dish so that BOTH the H and V lnb's are powered. Then the TinySA could scan both polarities at once.

Or would something go boom?
Geese fly north for the winter. Cats and dogs start shacking up together. Sun rise in the West. Universe collapse into a black hole. :shocked22:

[el bandido]

At minimum, you would be trying to combine two antennas without using anything to properly combine them. We want to get an idea of what signals the receiver is having to deal with. Combining both polarities might give an idea as to what is on the satellite, but it would not help to understand what the receiver sees because the fta receiver is not designed to receive both polarities at the same time.

True cell tower interference may be seen on both polarities of the lnb. The reason for this is cell tower signals are designed to work whether the cell phone or cellular device is facing up, down, or sideways.

I have also seen the idea of using a lnb to hunt for 5G cellular signals. Some seem to think there is something magical about the lnb that allows it to amplify signals. The only signals the lnb can amplify by itself are the line frequencies. The lnb gets its signal amplification from the satellite dish. The lnb antenna is only a single dipole( or a dual dipole if the lnb is dual polarity).

[ArloG]

Haven't managed to setup a 5g 'wardriver' yet. Looks like T-Mobile setup 5G service in a few towers here recently. Fortunately they are off axis and behind my dish miles away and not in LOS of it.
So far in youse guys (lol) experimentation. Does it appear as if major interference is only in a situation where the dish is a few degrees of LOS of a tower?
Or is it possible interference may be possible from side lobes also?
I had some heavy thinking remembering my analog cell phone and pager days where we worked in screen rooms.
When the door closed. All external RF was as close as possible 100% attenuated.
Since my assumption at the moment is that 5G is of a frequency high enough to give a narrow beam. As EB stated.
I'm wondering if a frame of some size. Maybe not too big. With metal window screen on both sides and earth grounded. In between the dish and tower.
If that wouldn't attenuate interference at all. Just a concept.

Brian is a real good dude. I would never treat him as a Best Buy or wally world. Can't blame him at all for the no return statement. I mean, if an lnbf was borked out of box. Hopefully he would oblige.

[el bandido]

T-Mobile Home Internet and T-Mobile cellular services have only a small amount of frequencies in the 3.5 - 4 GHz range. You probably don't need to worry about T-Mobile unless you are in a highly populated, Urban area. Verizon and ATT can operate somewhere in the 3.5 to 4 GHz on almost every cell tower in the United States. The cellular services in the 3.5 - 4 GHz range will not effect your c band satellite dish unless enough unwanted signal collects on the dish and overloads the lnb. It's that simple.

Studies on cell tower interference in c band are usually within 300 meters of the tower. In other words, your satellite dish needs to be within 300 meters of the cell tower if you want to have a decent chance of interference from the cell tower. Studies are studies, but a distance of 300 meters from the cell tower seems reasonable when you think about it, Satellite dishes point up, towards the sky and are very directional.

Some wildcards for c band satellite interference are micro or mini-cells, Internet gateways connected to c band frequencies, and possibly cell phones operating on c band frequencies. Instructions for cellular Internet gateways suggest installing the gate near a window. So it is easy to see Internet gateways interfering with c band satellite dishes in crowded neighborhoods.

What to do or what to put up will depend on where the interference is coming from and how strong it is. Hardly any two interference situations will be the exact same. Surely it would be possible to put up large mesh panels and block part if not all of the interference, but what would the yard look like afterwards? Most c band hobbyists will need to move - relocate the dish or install filters if they are experiencing in-band interference.

[armadillo_115]

Arlo, I have not had any 5G interference to deal with yet, so I couldn't say. Hope I never do!

I always had glitches between my two bud systems using lnbf's. Switching to dual lnb feedhorns (as EB suggested) was the only cure I found for it. I hope to never go back to lnbf's... BUT... I would hate to buy 4 wave guides and/or 4 new 5G blocking lnb's Ouch! Of course if every needed in the future, the cost of wave guides and 5G blocking lnb's may be less in the future.

Also: Wife would lose several lower freq channels she likes on the Atlantic sats.

My distance from the main road and protection from hills/trees may prevent any towers from bothering me. A neighbors cell phone or home internet device would be the most likely culprit here.

[el bandido]

If you are surrounded by trees instead of buildings, and your nearest neighbor is 500 feet or more away, then you probably will not have any cellular c band problems.

A 3.5- 4 GHz frequency is going to act like a shotgun. When you are close to the transmitting source, you will get the full effect of the signal. The 3.5 - 4 GHz frequency will scatter fast as you move away from it. Obstructions like trees and hills will speed up the signal scatter at these frequencies.

A yagi or highly directional beam type antenna will usually be recommended when you have direct, unobstructed view to a cell tower, and are trying to increase the signal from it. A panel type antenna will usually be recommended when you have trees or other instructions in front of a cell tower, and are trying to increase the signal from it. The reasoning for this is simple: A yagi has a tighter beam and is more directional. A panel antenna has a much wider beam as compared to a yagi and could be more useful for collecting a scattered signal.

When dealing with interference, you have to know where the interfering signal is coming from and at least have some idea of how strong it is. This is the first step if you want to have success.

[ArloG]

I'm good for a long time. 300m is a good enough figure to know I'll probably never get any interference. Towers are N and NE of me and even though I can see the beacon lights at night of the due north towers, they are at least 5 miles away. Whatever that works out in km is up to ya'll.
Hey man. Who wouldn't want a big fly swatter in their yard? Heh! There is this guy here that had a bed spring on pulleys in a tree who hoisted it up and down to to get the Bills game. That blew me away. And....it actually seemed to work even with a deep fringe antenna on his house. Go figure.

I've made patch antennas for L band Inmarsat.
The REC put in fiber. I still have cable. Subbed to 100mbps service and recently found out they upped it to 200mbps for the same price. Pretty cool. Fiber is 5 bucks more a month.
What's cool is I built a 2.4 GHz 14 element yagi and put DD-WRT on a Netgear R7000 router. Running it in client bridge mode.
My "neighbor" (I live in the stixx) is about 3/4km away from me through trees. I house watch for him in the winter when they hit Fl.
Pretty good signal and it's bridged to my LAN.

The big worry was potential lobe interference on my dish. So 300m settles my mind. Still a bit amazed that Othernet can use a bare ku lnbf pointed at a satellite w/o a dish and get signal.
So the bare C band lnbf for a "rifle scope" to hunt out 5G spectrum was a thought.

Finding and getting a quality orthomode and a couple of Norsats has crossed my mind. Its just that from all of the reading here and there. The wow factor don't justify it. But....does it guys?
I mean. There's "Corvette Joe" here. A Belgian dude. He's had Ferarris, Porsche's. Has a photo of him and Enzo with arms around each other's shoulders.
He was at the local body shop getting his CTS from some stone chip repair. Not actually bragging. "Adamant". Of how fast his cars were.
The body shop owner muttered about a car in the lot that would blow them all away. Mind you that was before Hellcats came out.
Joe looked and asked where?? The shop owner told him the silver 4 door. Joe went out and made a couple of circles around it. Kind of "meh". We talked. I popped the hood. He checked things out.
Rocky (shop owner) said "Give him a rip". I asked him if he wanted. So Joe got in. Headed out to the edge of town. Just enough RPM's and boost to make him thing "That's it?!!!"
Hit an open stretch and opened it up after switching to the track map with the trik cruise control button mod.
All he did was stiffen up and eye locked the tach and speedo. Holyshitholyshitholyshitholyshit. That's all he said. And had Tourette's on and off for the next 15 minutes after we got back to the shop.
Haha. Not bragging. It is what it is. But...

Will I get similar reaction with an ortho/Norsat setup on my 12 footer (you do the metric convershion)? Would a Corotor do the same? I have a box of them. They need a teardown and bead blasted and powder coated.

[el bandido]

Walking around the yard while using a c band lnb for an antenna would be a messy experience at best. I think you would be better off using a small yagi that is designed to operate on c band instead. Try it and see.

As for changing lnbs, you usually get what you pay for. New Japan Radio (NJR), and Norsat are two common brands that you will see at commercial satellite sites. But if you don't know WHY you are changing lnbs, then you probably shouldn't.

[el bandido]

The reason it is possible for Othernet users to get a signal without using a dish is the signal strength that is needed.
Here is a quote from the Dreamcatcher user manual for Othernet:

Lower Rssi levels such as -100 dBm may carry signal, but the
Dreamcatcher is not sensitive enough below -95 dBm

Usually a fta receiver will have tuner specs between -30dbm and -60dbm. Othernet Dreamcatcher is looking for a signal value between -60dbm and -95 dBm. So Othernet can operate using a signal that is 1000 times weaker than what a fta receiver needs as a minimum requirement. Ditto the amount of information being sent and the Othernet frequency width.


I also notice the Edision MIO+ doesn't play or has trouble playing channels when the TinySA Ultra shows the transponder signal at or around -60dbm. Every frequency I have been able to check and verify on the TinySA Ultra seem to be where they are supposed to be. Satellite beacon frequencies displayed on the TinySa Ultra are almost identical to what is advertised.

[ArloG]

It goes back to the VU+ guy with 'roll your own' tuners. He's getting channels and tp's that the mio is blind to.
My weak mind is saying what if a receiver with a hot tuner combined with sensitive lnb's were used.

'dillo mentioned in #54 of troubles. Assuming he went to an orthomode setup fixed the glitches he experienced. Wondering what the glitches actually were.
Mine is a C2-W. One output of it went weak. Perhaps because the F connectors were loose from factory. I don't know. Haven't cracked it open to check. Sometimes the center connector turns inside the teflon independent of the outer fitting. That's a good thing. Sometimes not. Stressing the connection to whatever it's soldered to.

Makes total sense now Othernet working with low dB levels. It just never occurred that an lna/lnb could even work at all w/o a 'mirror' to concentrate signal at the throat.
Low signal, low data rates, and good error correction seems to work well on the Dreamcatcher. When it was Outernet all of the signal processing was done in software.

Making and tweaking the 2.4 GHz yagi took a bit of doing. Up that a gig in freq. and who knows. Even with 12 elements for directors I see frontal lobes several degrees from center.
Here I used telescoping brass hobby tubing and a fiberglass driveway marker rod. Starting with a dipole for the active element and tuning to length with the trusty HP network analyzer.
Switched to a folded dipole and loop match. Worked much better and more stable. Wow. 4 GHz might be a bit of a challenge. You just look at it and SWR/return loss is all over the place.
So maybe an all in one, factory tweaked lnbf really doesn't sound that far-fetched. Strap a couple of 9V's in series and a DC block.
I'm steering towards a lower amplified working freq. and feeding an SDR. Lets see.
Projects!

[el bandido]

Vu+ produced great subscription boxes. Vu+ satellite receivers do not perform exceptionally well as a fta receiver. But if you think they are that great, then buy one or two. Also, the pluggable tuner thingy is Wonderful! That is until you turn on the receiver and find the tuner is not recognized. Then the pluggable tuners are not Wonderful anymore. But again, buy one and see for yourself. Great subscription box!

Usually making a home-made antenna costs more than what you could buy the antenna for. Problem is, you don't learn much buying an antenna pre-made. Good job with the homemade antenna!


The strongest 2-3 GHz signal I could find around here with the TinySA was between -20dbm and -30 dbm. The signals came from a wireless router and cellphone. Both items were a few feet from the TinySA when these measurements were recorded.

My satellite noise floor seems to run around -70dbm. The documentation I have read says that reducing an unwanted signal to -55dbm will probably take care of any interference issue. So if I had a -30dbm unwanted signal that was interfering with c band, a filter of -25 db would take it down to -55dbm. A 45db filter would take the unwanted signal down to -75dbm. Providing of course the filters worked in the same frequency range as the unwanted signal. This is one way to use the TinySA analyzer to determine what you need to solve interference issues.

[armadillo_115]

...'dillo mentioned in #54 of troubles. Assuming he went to an orthomode setup fixed the glitches he experienced. Wondering what the glitches actually were...


Arlo, It was a long running mini-series over at Hyper's old site. I have TWO 10ft buds feeding 3 - 4 receivers. (Receiver #'s vary at times) Was running a dual lnbf on each bud. Had voltage (?) interaction between receivers. Wherever we would change channels on one receiver it would often glitch the other receivers. (Especially when receivers were using opposite buds) Either had to wait for signals to stabilize or reboot the receivers. Tried different: lnbf's, diseqce switches, multi-switches, etc.

The only cure was running dual feed horns with lnb's instead of lnbf's.

I can't say I got any real signal increase running the dual feed horns. If anything, mine are slightly inferior on many transponders. I'm sure it would be better if I wasn't running bargain basement lnb's.

Money can't buy the peace and quiet those dual feed horns finally brought me. lmao

[ArloG]

Vu+ produced great subscription boxes. Vu+ satellite receivers do not perform exceptionally well as a fta receiver. But if you think they are that great, then buy one or two. Also, the pluggable tuner thingy is Wonderful! That is until you turn on the receiver and find the tuner is not recognized. Then the pluggable tuners are not Wonderful anymore. But again, buy one and see for yourself. Great subscription box!

Oh hell! Not exactly the point I was getting at. Actually as you know. I was pondering of grabbing one from a dude on linuxsat who offered to get one (he's an admin there) and ship to me as a gift to give it a whirl over here. Because he's friends with World of Satellite I was given the option to test it for an extended period after the return policy. Pretty cool, huh? Of course I'd pay him for it. The bottleneck was what tuner or tuners to pick that would work here. As for not recognized (tuners). I didn't tear the latest TNAP down to see how many tuner drivers you include. I would suspect only the custom AVL drivers for the mio(s). Makes sense. Adding drivers for let's say and external USB tuner shouldn't be difficult...not saying dealing with anything Linux is ever easy. Lol!!
I'd have to say since he's getting more FTA channels and getting them better with more signal strength where the mio craps out or is blind. He made his point.

Pluggable tuners a "thingy"? Kinda like saying a dish with a welded on lna/lnbf would not be a "thingy" don't you think? I ain't going to run out and buy a VU+ or any other new receiver unless it's a TBS card anytime soon.

I want to put something into perspective. I've been into amateur radio since like forever. My dad and I had out tickets when I turned 10. And 10 was a long time ago.
Anyhow. Some years ago I purchased an unblocked Icom IC-R8500. Enjoyed it for years besides my stack of boat anchor radios. Love the smell of coffee and tubes in the morning.
A few years back I purchased an IC-R8600. And the stock brick power supply. It didn't take long to find it just didn't have the sensitivity in HF/VHF that the 8500 had. Unbelievable, right!
Antennas...check, cables.....check, all that. Being new and under warranty I didn't even screw with it. I boxed it up and sent it to Michigan to Icom's service center.
Got it back in flying colors. It met and exceeded factory specs. With a printout of actual test results. So. What's the deal? Sensitivity sucked still compared to other radios.
Crap. The switching power supply was the culprit. I sent it in too at the time. My R8500 had a linear power supply. No noise, no hash. The R8600 with a linear or battery is simply amazing now.

So. Back to your VU+ thingy. A guy with one satellite receiver. The mio because it was the cat's ass and everyone said to grab it. Or the dude who gets a zap that kills the tuner rendering the receiver a boat anchor. Kind of makes it an Apple Mac that borks a graphics card or whatever on a Friday. Not an easy thing to blast to the pc store and grab any old GPU and slap it in and you're golden.
The dude that proved his receiver got things that the mio didn't by a heavy margin. And proved it, made a very good point. Dontcha' think?
Yeah. I kinda' repeated myself. In case the mio ears didn't grab it on the first scan.
It's cool. Smack that kiss my ass button. I'm a good humored person. If you're a brit you can add an extra "u".

Usually making a home-made antenna costs more than what you could buy the antenna for. Problem is, you don't learn much buying an antenna pre-made. Good job with the homemade antenna!

Actually maybe not. With folks like jlpcb out there it would be easy enough to design a few different yagi, log periodic antennas and have different flavors ready in a few days for a few bucks on epoxy boards.
On the 'tube Andrew McNeill is the antenna guru . He actually inspired me to get my old-assed HP network analyzer. I love it. He does enough reviews of store bought purpose designed antennas to show that most are crap. Ace Hardware has all the hobby metals and tubing I ever needed. Ebay has given me sources for the best American made coax chunks and fittings I ever needed. Search "nearest first" and in a day or three as Kelly Bundy said...."Vi-Ola".

The strongest 2-3 GHz signal I could find around here with the TinySA was between -20dbm and -30 dbm. The signals came from a wireless router and cellphone. Both items were a few feet from the TinySA when these measurements were recorded.

My satellite noise floor seems to run around -70dbm. The documentation I have read says that reducing an unwanted signal to -55dbm will probably take care of any interference issue. So if I had a -30dbm unwanted signal that was interfering with c band, a filter of -25 db would take it down to -55dbm. A 45db filter would take the unwanted signal down to -75dbm. Providing of course the filters worked in the same frequency range as the unwanted signal. This is one way to use the TinySA analyzer to determine what you need to solve interference issues.

The geekery is not so geeky to me. I'd be interested to learn your findings for off axis persistence. In other words if you landed on 127W and a band of transponders were overwhelmed with 5G interference. In a normal situation shifting the dish 2 degrees E/W you would lose a channel (tp). How many degrees would 5G interference keep blowing into the dish and focusing on the lnbf?

[el bandido]

The geekery is not so geeky to me. I'd be interested to learn your findings for off axis persistence. In other words if you landed on 127W and a band of transponders were overwhelmed with 5G interference. In a normal situation shifting the dish 2 degrees E/W you would lose a channel (tp). How many degrees would 5G interference keep blowing into the dish and focusing on the lnbf?

There is not going to be a set distance to move a dish. Every situation will be different, and everyone does not have the same dish either. A quick look at the analyzer will tell you if in-band interference is present. The idea in moving the dish is to separate the interference from the satellite transponders. If you move the dish a degree or two in each direction and the interference goes away, then you either have no problem or you have a problem with one satellite. Also, separating the in-band interference form the satellite transponders will give a better view of how strong the interference is.

Every situation will be different.


As for the Vu+ tuner decision, you should have gotten what was being used in the MIO test. Simple enough. I guess we will never know the exact make of Vu+ product or the transponders being tested, and how they were being tested. Probably wouldn't matter much even if this information was available. Good luck with Vu+! :bow:

[armadillo_115]

I would think 5G interference from a terrestrial source to be harder to turn away from than a sat signal.

Terrestrial signal may be reflecting of trees, hills, buildings etc. Possible coming in from different angles. Stronger signal as well?

IDK how you could determine the specifics, but interesting to contemplate.

[el bandido]

Put in a simple, general way, The interfering signal has to collect on the dish in a large enough quantity to overload the lnb. The satellite dish looks up towards the sky. The cell tower signal looks down. The cell tower antennas have down-tilt built into them. Micro or mini cells, home internet routers, and even cell phones running c band frequencies can add to or cause interference. If you are in the down-tilt of the cell tower, then you have had a bad day.

No two interference situations will be the same. No two backyards will be the same. And not many satellite dishes will be exactly the same.All things equal, you could expect a smaller satellite dish to have more interference problems than a noticeably larger satellite dish. Then you have the location of the cell tower in the satellite arc. My nearest cell tower is almost due south where the dish is at its highest. Might be a different story for me if the cell tower was at 127w and I wanted to watch 127w. My dish is tilted down a whole lot more at 127w than at 87w.

The idea here is to fully understand what is going on in a particular situation. Once the interference is fully understood, then it can be dealt with (or not). The analyzer will not be clean when in-band interference is present. You can expect see lots of skinny lines mixed in with the transponders, or lots of skinny lines besides the transponders, depending on the frequency of the interference. The lines of interference may be a bit below, equal to, or above the lines for the transponders.

[el bandido]

I found a couple of videos on the TinySa Ultra that seem to have good and correct information about the product. These videos should be watched by anyone that thinks the TinySa Ultra is not displaying the c band frequencies correctly or within reason. The TinySa Ultra is probably not good enough for precise alignments at some frequencies, which reflects its price.Good, precision analyzers cost thousands of dollars.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[el bandido]

Software is available that allows the output of the TinySa Ultra to be displayed on a Modern Windows PC. Full features of the TinySa Ultra are not available in the PC software, but the basics such as scan frequencies are there. Plus there is a record mode.

For those on more of a budget or for those not wanting to spend much money, there are analyzers that work only with a Windows PC for around 40-50 dollars. A video of one of those devices is shown below. A spectrum analyzer like this is not what I want, but it would probably do OK for checking interference in c band. Pay attention to the specs of any small analyzer because some of them only cover in the MHz range. Other small analyzers only cover up to a couple of Gigahertz, but this would be OK for checking signals on a lnb, which would be 950-2150 MHz.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[el bandido]

Protect your analyzer or any other device that is connected to the powered lnb by using a splitter that blocks voltage on one side, or a voltage blocking connector. Don't "assume" that the voltage protection device works! Check the voltage on the port Before you connect to it. Even a small amount of voltage on a port will ruin a sensitive analyzer. Shown below are some of the items I purchased for voltage protection.


17621

[el bandido]

Already discussed is moving the dish East or West to see if the possible interference follows the dish, or to see if the interfering signals can be separated from the satellite signals. The dish can also be moved up or down (North, South). This is something I really don;t won;t to do. I have been blessed with a motorized dish system that requires very little attention. It stops when and where it's supposed to after a move, and the satellite dish has not been aligned in a couple of years.

Anyway, I will probably loosen the the big elevation nut while aimed at 87w and let the dish drop down.There is a multi-switch at the dish that will allow for an analyzer connection to see what happens as the dish drops. It will be interesting to see if the satellite signals disappear and the cellular c band signals get stronger when doing this.


17622

[Terryl]

I would not use a splitter as it will degrade the signals by as much as 3 dB,(or more at higher frequency's) I use an RF sampler, there are some available on line but you can easily build one your self, this link below has one, you can replace the in/out connectors he used with "F" type and what ever type your analyzer needs on the sample output.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[armadillo_115]

Protect your analyzer or any other device that is connected to the powered lnb by using a splitter that blocks voltage on one side, or a voltage blocking connector.....

17621

I have a similar setup so that one receiver supplies lnb power. (The other receiver no longer puts out dc voltage)

I have a splitter with voltage block on one side PLUS a dc blocker on the bad receiver. I figured it was safer in case either failed.

[el bandido]

I would not use a splitter as it will degrade the signals by as much as 3 dB,(or more at higher frequency's) I use an RF sampler, there are some available on line but you can easily build one your self, this link below has one, you can replace the in/out connectors he used with "F" type and what ever type your analyzer needs on the sample output.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

This is an excellent idea, but not many are capable of building such a device. Most of the available samplers seem to be for the low MHz band. I only found one that is anywhere close to the 950-2150MHz frequencies that are required. (See link below.)

[Only registered and activated users can see links] FYEf1617e6cHtTyQzc0eLARNPlxmaIqzdpfsOeLc5UarfnROk0 3Po2JDhSavwewDMBjY9H2tPY%2FB5mFA%2Bv019Z%2ByKy9YAF jpoVCQ5B3kV4IsxCCXkTicQbV2X42cmey%2F%2FkRYhH09Qc7n ewcJ576EBLpEx%2BHv%2FWdnIutAE3VzldNKviYwu%2FzBEuSy eDNywXL23bYt%2B9hVz9N%2Feu31dH0aROREJXamzCbuSLd5Xt r9G7W5eiVoyA%2FWkWJbFxJWd4BJ0looiiZwpd8%2B24Ov5%7C tkp%3ABk9SR-rE492-YQ

Also the lnb has something like 50 db gain for losses in the line. So what's a 3db loss gonna hurt with a line amp like that? FTA Switches are also an insertion loss. Some fta satellite systems have multiple switches installed and seem to work quite well. Granted, don't insert loss if you don't have to, but I have not noticed any degraded or loss of signal during my tests with the splitter installed.

[el bandido]

I lowered the dish to see what happened with the signal. ALL signals disappeared when the dish was slightly lowered. To check further, I lowered the dish many degrees while watching the analyzer. I got no signals. Nothing!

17625


Now what the heck is going on here? The analyzer shows a group of signals around 3800-3900 MHz coming from the cell tower. Seems that since these signals can also be seen in front of the dish, they would also be ON the dish and seen by the lnb. So why does the lnb not see them?

The lnb does not see the signals because they don't exist! Most likely my cell tower has no c band signals on it now. The analyzer is displaying the second harmonic of the 1900 MHz cell band. Harmonic calculator shown below.

17624

[Terryl]

This is an excellent idea, but not many are capable of building such a device. Most of the available samplers seem to be for the low MHz band. I only found one that is anywhere close to the 950-2150MHz frequencies that are required. (See link below.)

[Only registered and activated users can see links] FYEf1617e6cHtTyQzc0eLARNPlxmaIqzdpfsOeLc5UarfnROk0 3Po2JDhSavwewDMBjY9H2tPY%2FB5mFA%2Bv019Z%2ByKy9YAF jpoVCQ5B3kV4IsxCCXkTicQbV2X42cmey%2F%2FkRYhH09Qc7n ewcJ576EBLpEx%2BHv%2FWdnIutAE3VzldNKviYwu%2FzBEuSy eDNywXL23bYt%2B9hVz9N%2Feu31dH0aROREJXamzCbuSLd5Xt r9G7W5eiVoyA%2FWkWJbFxJWd4BJ0looiiZwpd8%2B24Ov5%7C tkp%3ABk9SR-rE492-YQ

Also the lnb has something like 50 db gain for losses in the line. So what's a 3db loss gonna hurt with a line amp like that? FTA Switches are also an insertion loss. Some fta satellite systems have multiple switches installed and seem to work quite well. Granted, don't insert loss if you don't have to, but I have not noticed any degraded or loss of signal during my tests with the splitter installed.

3 Db is one half of your total Rf voltage, or one quarter of your total RF level, and the 50 dB gain is internal to the LNB not on it's output.

The transponder signals coming down from the satellite are in the picovolt (pV) to nanovolt (nV) range, the dish it's self has 40 to 50 dBd of gain to it, the signals coming off the cell tower by the time they get to you can be anywhere around 10 to 100 (or more) millivolts (mV) and can swamp any signal from the satellite at the same or close to frequency.

Now harmonics are a major problem, so is intermod, both are very hard to deal with, I have lost many tons of hair trying to deal with this type of junk back in my broadcast days, there use to be frequency co-ordination but all that went the way of the dodo bird.

[el bandido]

I don't notice much of a signal drop with the splitter installed. Granted if there was something else readily available to use, I would at least try it.

So I gotta ask:
If the 50 dB gain is internal to the LNB, and not on it's output, Then How can you use 200-300 feet of lossy rg6 to receive the line frequency between 950-2150 MHz signal that comes from the lnb? OR use 100-150 feet of lossy rg6 plus add a few switches, plus a ku motor or c band positioner along they way? Start adding up the line losses in consumer satellite systems and you will usually have At Minimum somewhere between 10-20db of losses in most systems. If these losses are so important, why is there not an interest in eliminating them?

Go out to the dish and connect a 10 foot piece of coax from the lnb mounted on the dish directly to a receiver. Then go in the house and connect to the same dish lnb, but this time using around of 150 feet of cheap rg6 plus some switches. The signal out at the dish is about the same as the signal inside the home, unless there is a hardware problem. How is this possible unless the lnb has a line amp??? Thanks.

[Terryl]

The receiver has an internal input amp usually controlled by an AGC* circuit, this helps with the loss in the coax, it can range fro 10 to 50 dB depending on the tuner.

All this is usually measured in dBm, so one watt equals 30 dBm, one milliwatt equals 0 dBm, one micowatt equals -30 dBm, one picowatt equals around -127 dBm or dBuV, so add the gain of the dish (lets say +40 dB) your at -87 dB, add the gain of the LNB (lets say +50 dB), your at -37 dB, deduct the signal loss of the coax (lets say -15 dB) your now at -52 dB, and now the receiver has an AGC amp in it so the signal coming in is regulated for a maximum signal without over amping the final signal to the tuners decoder.

*AGC automatic Gain Control

[ArloG]

Off topic. But not.
It's pretty simple. The intermediate frequency amp will have automatic gain control which tries its best to provide a linear and unsaturated output to the F connector.
I'm not so sure if many remember the heyday of C Band where there was a low noise amplifier with N type connector and immediately after it a boxy downconverter.
Coupled with a very short chunk of microwave coax or a straight (or 90 degree) N type coupler.
Try throwing the LNA output in those frequencies more than a few feet would result in where-the-hell-did-the-signal-go scenario.
I've looked in the box 'o parts and dug out and opened a C Band downconverter from eon's ago and sure enough. There's an AGC feedback circuit.
So yeah. That's why you see little signal loss using your run of the mill RG coax. If you don't kink it. 1 GHz today aint crap.
I'm glad those that jumped and got a tinysa are loving them. It's still a thought.
As with a nanovna, the tinysa running in ultra mode to get way up there in frequencies are doing it sorta' funky.
They work well. But the geekery going on inside of them to get the extended frequencies invites trashy harmonics. Something a bench or dedicated spectrum analyzer natively capable of working microwave freqs wouldn't do.
Now. 2 tinysa's. With an external mixer. Yeah. Now you're cooking. Not saying that one will give an idea of what's out there in the C Band. But still.
There was a day when Jenny sat with a bin of gasfet transistors wired to a wrist strap and a test fixture. With a pigeon hole bin to sort by degrees Kelvin.
You bought an lna built with 50 degree components from the 50 degree bin and if you had the bucks, got one from the same sorted bin of 20 degree gasfets. Example only. But still.

The wardriver is coming along. Took your every day run of the mill 3 port splitter and gutted it. Yanked one of the F connectors and put in an SMA in its place.
A bit of surgery on a piece of coax to tap the center conductor to feed the SMA. Straight through from the F input to the F output to receiver. The stub to the SMA got an SMD capacitor to isolate LNB voltage. Damn. I sound like the military (milla-tree for the brits) with all the acronyms.
A thought went through my feeble mind to wind a 1.5:1 balun with one of the gutted binocular core ferrites to match 75 to 50 ohms. Said screw it. It's a dirty tap. As long as a signal can be had. Cool.
Definitely going on the SDR receiver route. Because I have my SDRPlay RSP2 already and so what the hell.
SDR software has an IF offset setting in the menu. So using 5150 MHz, 5.15 GHz should give a direct freq. readout. I think. Ain't done it yet. This thing called snow happened and a lady with a son who spilled soda on his xmas gift gaming lappy. They panic. 80 some freaking plastic spikes hot melted over into rivets. Hot air station to remove the damned keyboard.
So. Good discussion guys. Optimists and pessimists alike.
Stay tuned. Something like a metal waveguide and an old Corotor lnbf is cooking.
If you have a pipe, put this in it. Or. Sure love that KMA button. That's cool!!

[el bandido]

I think we can agree that there is an amp that will take care of the insertion loss of the splitter. While it is not the best thing to have, it is available for a few dollars. Plus, anything that you put inline is going to have some sort of loss.

It is great to build stuff, but the idea is to keep it simple and reasonably cheap. The TinySA Ultra is something small and easy to use that can check and verify if an in-band interfering signal exists and where it is coming from. I knew when I bought the TinySA Ultra that it would not be perfect. And it can be used for a variety of things related to the satellite hobby, plus terrestrial antenna duties. So it is not a total loss by any means or anywhere near a total loss. But having the TinySA Ultra analyzer display 1.9 GHz second harmonics is a disappointment.

[el bandido]

Shown below is the TinySA Ultra displaying a set of satellite transponders. Normally I set the analyzer to scan 950-2150 MHz for a scan like this. Shown below is a scan from 950-4200 MHz so the harmonics can be seen. The harmonics are almost Identical to the transponders, and they are noticeably stronger. We can deal with it since we know these harmonics exist, but having these harmonics displayed will make it a bit more complicated when searching for c band signals on the cell tower. Maybe an updated firmware version at some point in time will fix the harmonics but I doubt it. I will Live with it...

(Satellite Transponders on the left. Harmonics that are a bit stronger on the right.)
17626

[el bandido]

Shown below is the proper piece of equipment that is needed for portable operations. After seeing the price, I am certain that I can deal with a few harmonics. :hmmm:



17628

[el bandido]

This is what Norsat has to say about lnb gain:

The gain of an LNB is amount the LNB will amplify the input signal which is expressed in dB. The input signal is very weak when it arrives at the receiving antenna and must be amplified many times before it can be transported down a coaxial cable. If the signal is not amplified the signal would be absorbed by the losses in the coaxial cable and never reaches the receiver. When selecting an LNB for a digital system it is important that the gain does not change significantly with temperature or over the received frequency range as digital systems are much more sensitive to these changes than previous analogue systems. Digital systems typically require an LNB gain to be 55 dB to 65 dB under all conditions. Gain flatness across a 500 or 800 MHz band should be better than ±5.0 dB and less than ±1.0 dB in 27 MHz segments. Variations greater than this can introduce gain distortion onto the incoming signals resulting in reduced receiver performance.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[armadillo_115]

How about a 3Ghz high pass filter to remove the harmonics? Something like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mememeth]

17629 new update, see last page for updates added

[el bandido]

How about a 3Ghz high pass filter to remove the harmonics? Something like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
I would expect this 3Ghz high pass filter would solve the harmonics or mirror issue in the TinySA. This is an excellent idea! We will see....



Harmonics, Mirrors, and false signals are mentioned in their Wiki. At least they are honest about the device.

To summarize the disadvantage of measuring in ultra mode:

Increased scan time
Fails to capture very short duration signals
Fails to capture scanning signals (e.g. from a sweeper)
Shows false signals when using with very complex or wide signals.
Higher LO leakage from RF connector

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[el bandido]

Anyone thinking about using a lnb for a signal finder or direction finding needs to consider the lnb gain. First you have to power the thing. Then you are gonna have a 50-60 db amp right next to your sensitive receiver. Coiling up 100 feet or thereabouts of some lossy rg6 might actually help in this particular situation. To me, it is much simpler and better to use a small directional antenna. You don't learn anything by doing nothing. Try it and see...

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
The LNB is a combination of low-noise amplifier, frequency mixer, local oscillator and intermediate frequency (IF) amplifier. It serves as the RF front end of the satellite receiver, receiving the microwave signal from the satellite collected by the dish, amplifying it, and downconverting the block of frequencies to a lower block of intermediate frequencies (IF).

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Gain
Signal gain – the extent to which an amplifier boosts the strength of the signal from the antenna – is not usually an issue as most LNBs come with a fixed gain value of about 60 dB. However, an LNB’s gain is important to consider in two key circumstances: when dealing with long interfacility links (IFL) or large, high-gain antennas.
With regards to IFL, the longer the cable that connects your outdoor satellite receiver to indoor routers or transmitters, the greater the signal loss. In these cases, an LNB that delivers higher gain is necessary.
With large antennas (e.g. at teleports) too much gain can be an issue. These antennas introduce large signal power to the first stage of an LNB, which can saturate the LNB and cause signal compression. When the signal is compressed, the output power no longer increases with the input power. This creates a non-linear response – which in turn produces signal distortion and harmonics. An LNB that can be customized for gain is critical in these circumstances.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Gain
The LNB Gain is the amount the incoming signal is amplified. At first glance, the higher the gain you could get would be the obvious thing to look for, however this is not the only critereon that you should be considering when it comes to LNBs. When you have a large antenna looks at a high powered group of satellites, the gain could be so high that it could overload the front end of the receiver. You could have too much gain.
Even if the receiver can handle a massive amount of signal, there can be problems within the LNB itself when a large amount of amplification is involved. This leads to the generation of artifacts, spurious signals and distortion products that are akin to the distorition that you would get from turning up the volume on your radio. This distortion will interfere with the reception of your signals.
So unless you have specific reasons for an ultra-high gain LNB, then look for a gain of around 50 - 60 dB.



There is a group of idiots or uninformed that think more lnb gain is great. Just use a 70db gain lnb and a smaller dish. Everything will be OK

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
LNBs high-gain
The ideal solution for difficult to receive satellites and small satellite dish. high-gainLNBs satellites offer a high signal amplification of 70 dB. This ensures good signal stability even for a small Camping dishone with a diameter of just 40 cm.
The low noise figure of only 0.1 dB ensures the best picture and sound quality.
The Single LNB is suitable for reception from a satellite and for connection to a receiver.

The low noise figure of only 0.1 dB....Lol. How many times do we hear that lie?
The same rules of an antenna apply: You cannot increase antenna performance by using amplifiers that increase gain. You can amplify a signal that is already there, but you cannot create more signal with a signal amplifier.

[armadillo_115]

I would expect this 3Ghz high pass filter would solve the harmonics or mirror issue in the TinySA. This is an excellent idea! We will see....
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I should have added: I just guessed on the sma type. Get a filter with the connectors to match the TinySA, (Or adapters) Too lazy to look up the specs or do a bunch of searching last night.

Possibly something cheaper/better available if you search around. :bigthumbup:

[el bandido]

The filter you picked out looks correct. It will depend though on which way the filter needs to be inserted, or if it matters which way the filter is inserted. Microwave parts are high when compared to antenna parts that are lower in frequency. What you have picked out also has a decent price when considering its operating frequency.

[Terryl]

How about a 3Ghz high pass filter to remove the harmonics? Something like this:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You need to filter the 5G signals and the harmonics before they get to the pre-amps inside the LNB, using one after the signals are down converted will do nothing, only an LNB manufactured with a band pass, or low band reject filter built inside will do the job. (or as best as it can if the 5G signal is too strong)

[Terryl]

Something like this one will do the job.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[el bandido]

To be clear, The TinySA is displaying frequencies around 1.8 -2GHz twice, Once on the correct frequency, and again on the second harmonic. When a cell tower is scanned for 3-4 GHz frequencies ONLY, then the second harmonic for the 1.8-2GHz are shown as 3-4GHz frequencies that do not exist! So you get the fake 3-4GHz frequencies on the TinySA Ultra when you scan 1.5-4.2 GHz, OR when you scan 3.5-4.2GHz. This is nothing more than a defect in equipment, and installing a 3Ghz high pass filter might remove the fake c band signals that are shown when scanning 3.5-4.2GHz.

The 3Ghz high pass filter to remove the harmonics would be used when using the TinySa Ultra to look for c band signals on the cell tower, or other places such as Home Internet routers. The 3Ghz high pass filter Would Not be used when the TinySa Ultra is connected to the lnb because the lnb signals are down-convereted to 950-2150 MHz. The 3Ghz high pass filter Would Not be used or installed inline with the lnb.

[el bandido]

For more clarity, we will show two scans. These scans were done on an antenna aimed directly at the cell tower.

Scan from 1.7-4.2GHz
17630


Scan from 3.5-4.2GHz
17631


The signals on the right(c band) mirror the signals on the left(cell signals) in the first scan.

The second scan shows the same c band frequencies as the first scan, but the scan range was set to 3.5-4.2 GHz.

So we "Assume" that inserting a 3Ghz high pass filter to block anything below 3GHz on the TinySa Ultra will make it read correctly. Will have to do two things to check this: (1) Buy the 3Ghz high pass filter, and (2) Find a cell tower that is actually transmitting in the 3.5-3.9GHz band to test it on. Buying the filter can be done. Finding a tower that is actually transmitting somewhere in the 3.6-3.9GHz range can be done.

Everything looks OK when the TinySA Ultra is connected to the lnb on the satellite dish. The transponders display correctly, and the data stations such as satellite beacons display correctly. So we could assume that the TinySA Ultra -would also show in-band interference if such interference were to exist. There does not appear to be any in-band interference at my location to date, but that could change...

[Terryl]

Never used a "TinySA Ultra" but looked at the manufactures web page, it says that it goes up to 950 MHz, how are you looking at signals around 1.5 to 4,2 GHz ???

Just wondering?

never mind I found whats going on from the web site.

It maybe that the spurs your looking at may be generated internally when you switch to ultra mode.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[el bandido]

I think it is very Obvious as to what the TinySA Ultra is displaying by looking at the First picture in post#91 above. The terms Second Harmonic or Mirror would be a good description.


One VHF-3100+ filter has been ordered. According to the attached .pdf document, insertion loss should be less than 1 db.

Note To Self:
If this filter doesn't work, then send the bill for it to the 'Dillo dude.
If this filter does work, then claim ownership of the idea.

[Terryl]

Hard to see those photos, the indications are fuzzy, but I see what your looking at, how many dB down are the interference signals as I cant read the scales too good.

And you said you used an antenna looking at the towers, can you mount that antenna at the dishes focal point?

[el bandido]

It is hard to get a good. clear picture of the TinySA display. Almost next to impossible it seems. But I think the picture is clear enough to see the signals on the right are duplicates of the signals on the left.

I don't think there are any real 3GHz interfering signals as they did not pass a process of elimination test. If those 3GHz signals are real, then they should be on the satellite dish, which they are not. The 3GHz signals look like an exact copy of the cell tower signals around 1.9 GHz. The 3GHz signals are shown to be stronger by 5-8 db as compared to the 1.9GHz signals. If the 3GHz signals were real, then it would seem they should be about equal in strength or less in strength as compared to the 1.9GHz signals. The cell antenna is on a tower about 40 feet up. If I want to look at the signal on the dish, then I connect the TinySa Ultra to the dish lnb.

[Terryl]

Well lets see if the filter helps out.

Back in my cable TV days we had a test LNBF for the big dish's, it had a test port on it that taped into the final output of the first amps, just before the mixer, this is where we would connect the spectrum analyzer,(and other stuff) it was great for final peaking of the dish.

But back them we didn't have problems with 5G, heck there wasn't even a cell phone system yet, all we had to contend with were the Russian spook satellites messing things up.

I wish I had access to the equipment I had back then, I would like to see if something like this is around my area.

[armadillo_115]

You need to filter the 5G signals and the harmonics before they get to the pre-amps inside the LNB, using one after the signals are down converted will do nothing, only an LNB manufactured with a band pass, or low band reject filter built inside will do the job. (or as best as it can if the 5G signal is too strong)

Terryi, this was referring to using a TinySA Ultra with an antenna to TEST for 5G interference.

The topic kinda expanded as time went on, so I see where it could be confusing. Probably Elbandido's fault.... 'cause I never ramble off topic. :rofl:

Maybe some of this thread should be moved to a new 'TinySA' thread?

It's all good!

[armadillo_115]

I think it is very Obvious as to what the TinySA Ultra is displaying by looking at the First picture in post#91 above. The terms Second Harmonic or Mirror would be a good description.


One VHF-3100+ filter has been ordered. According to the attached .pdf document, insertion loss should be less than 1 db.

Note To Self:
If this filter doesn't work, then send the bill for it to the 'Dillo dude.
If this filter does work, then claim ownership of the idea.

Just charge it to 'The Ground' and let the rain settle it. lol

Even without 5G interference, it will prove whether the 3Ghz filter removes the harmonics. If the filter works: Be good to have for future use, Never know when harmonics from other freqs below 3Ghz might show up.

Besides... I prefer spending someone else's money rather than mine. :laugh: :thanx:

[Terryl]

Yah I agree, part of this is my fault, I tend to ramble on in my old age after too much coffee.

A new thread may be needed as I'm now very interested in this 5G stuff.

[Terryl]

Terryi, this was referring to using a TinySA Ultra with an antenna to TEST for 5G interference.

The topic kinda expanded as time went on, so I see where it could be confusing. Probably Elbandido's fault.... 'cause I never ramble off topic. :rofl:

Maybe some of this thread should be moved to a new 'TinySA' thread?

It's all good!
Naaaa my fault, they still blame me for the Titanic.

[armadillo_115]

Getting WAY off topic now: Watched a show the other day. Claimed there was a fire in one of the coal bins before the Titanic began its cruise. Fire was still burning during cruise. Old pictures show a dark spot on the hull. Happens to be right where the iceberg later struck. They speculated the fire weakened the bulkheads. The Inquiry pretty much covered it up. Who knows?

So maybe they'll quit blaming Terryl now.... unless he started the coal fire. :point:

[el bandido]

LOL!

Anyway, some decent pictures of the TinySA output should be shown. The accuracy of this device in the 950-2150MHz range is impressive considering the price. 101W c band will be used as the first example. These examples are taken from the Windows computer interface. Scans are 950-2150MHz.


TinySa Ultra 101w-Horizontal & FTA blindscan
17634<------------------>17635

The TinySA Ultra clearly shows the 30,000SR transponders, and a fta blindscan is shown as a comparison. The satellite data beacon is marked in the TinySa ultra scan and of course the becon is not shown in the fta blindscan. According to SatBeams, the Horizontal beacon frequency should be 3700.5. The TinySA Ultra shows the beacon frequency to be 3699.7 (5750-2050.3). The Norsat DRO lnbs that are being used have a tolerance of +-500KHz.


TinySa Ultra 101w-Vertical & FTA blindscan
17636<------------------>17637

Again, the 30,000SR transponders are clearly shown. The TinySa Ultra comes impressively close with this beacon frequency of 4199.5, displaying the beacon as: 4199.399 (5750-1550.601). This sort of makes me wonder if the Vertical lnb is a bit better than the Horizontal? I have noticed the Horizontal beacon is not quite as accurate as the vertical beacon on other satellites.

Scan data can also be saved in excel format. Data for the two scans shown above are attached. Technically there are things you can do with this data, including identifying possible transponders that are not found in a blindscan. But we will not cover that in this thread.

[armadillo_115]

Impressive.
Much more detail on a pc monitor.

[Terryl]

Much better. but too bad the noise floor is so high, you might see something buried down lower.

[el bandido]

Most fta receivers cannot receive a signal lower than -60dbm.

Amazonas at 61w is noisy. my lnbs can receive from 3625MHz up to 4800MHz. Amazonas at 61w has activities above 4200MHz.


TinySa Ultra 61w-Horizontal and fta blindscan
17639<------------------>17640

The only c band beacon SatBeams list is 4500.1H The TinySa Ultra shows 4499.7 (5750-1250.3). This frequency is marked in the scan.


TinySa Ultra 61w-Vertical and fta blindscan
17641<------------------>17642

There is a lot of activity on this satellite. The transponders are not well defined when compared to most other satellites. Anyway, I think this proves that the TinySa Ultra is working at least fairly well on the 950-2150MHz range. Now we need to get it to show us True in-band interference from a cell tower.

The 3 GHz filter should arrive sometime this week. I will make an attempt to travel to a place where I think 5G c band frequencies are operational. Then we can see how or if the filter works. We know that the TinySa Ultra is duplicating frequencies on the cell tower when scanning above 3 GHz. So I think it could be assumed that if any 3GHz frequencies are found that cannot be tied to a duplicate of a lower frequency would be real 3GHz frequencies. We will see....

[el bandido]

I asked Edision if there were any antenna feed line amplifiers anywhere in the receiver. Here is their reply:



Hello,
thank you for contacting EDISION.

The EDISION OS MIO+ receiver doesn't have any internal amplifier as it works with additional tuners (terrestrial, cable or satellite) that its chipsets are controlled from the additional software-image that the receiver has on it. Installer must provide a sufficient level signal that must overcome the minimum standard threshold, in order receiver can perform satisfactorily.

For further support about this, you must address to any professional installer with professional equipment/meter in order to help you further.

So it appears the only amplifier for the antenna feed line in a consumer type fta receiver is in the lnb. This makes sense because you want to install any line amplifier right below the antenna instead of installing the amplifier at the receiver.

[Terryl]

Well that's not quite right with the internal amp's in the receiver, the satellite tuner that is installed has it's own pre-amp's and output amp to supply the receivers de-modulator chip set with the correct signal level it needs, but other then that I would agree, after the internal tuner there wouldnt be another amp.

Quote from Edision: as it works with additional tuners (terrestrial, cable or satellite)

And I would not recommend to use an external amplifier on a satellite system, all it's going to do is raise the noise floor, that is unless you can afford a professional in-line amp for 900 to 3000 MHz. (BIG $$$$)

Hey El Bandido, did that filter have any affect? Or haven't you tried it yet>

[el bandido]

I am pretty familiar with the AVL6261 tuner that is in the Edision MIo receivers. I have never seen anything about amplification when working with it for the past several years. So if amplification for antenna line exists in the tuner, then I haven't seen it. The only place I see actual amplification for the antenna line is in the lnb.

There was a nice ice storm out in Texas which delayed the shipping of my 3GHz filter. I checked this afternoon and it shows "shipped". So maybe it will be here Monday or Tuesday.

[Terryl]

Check out this PDF file for the tuner module, it is a generic model, but the input diagram is the same, the little pyramids on there side are the input and AGC amps inside the tuner.

17645

It has about 50 dB of variable input gain, this controlled by the RF decoder chip set.

[armadillo_115]

Thanks for splitting the post. :bigclap:
It'll be good... til we start wandering again. :hide:

I'm enjoying reading this thread. Lots of interesting ideas and info being discussed!

BTW: If that 3G filter works... It should be renamed 'Armadillo's Delete Harmonic Disturbance' filter. Or A.D.H.D. for short. lmao

[armadillo_115]

If it fails... 'Elbandido's Dinero' filter. E.D. for short. roflmao

That was wrong... but it was funny.

[el bandido]

Check out this PDF file for the tuner module, it is a generic model, but the input diagram is the same, the little pyramids on there side are the input and AGC amps inside the tuner.

17645

It has about 50 dB of variable input gain, this controlled by the RF decoder chip set.

What was available in 1997 might have been a little different. Look at the AVL6261: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Terryl]

Well that's a de-modulator chip not the tuner module I'm talking about, the tuner is a separate item, it's what the coax from the LNB connects to, then the signal is fed into that device (AVL6261) your looking at.

And the overall design has not changed much in the last decade or two as far as the tuner module block diagram goes.

[el bandido]

The 3400 to 9900 MHz high pass filter from Mouser arrived today. I installed it and immediately noticed all signals on my cell tower went away. I also did a quick check of the 5GHz router. The TinySA Ultra could pick up the 5G signals on the router when it was operating with the high pass filter installed. So the high pass filter seems to work as advertised.

I also had to drive bit today, including part of downtown Atlanta. I let the TinySA Ultra scan 3500-4500 MHz as I drove. Many cell towers were passed along the way. None of the cell towers showed any c band signals until I got within few miles of Atlanta, but even then c band cell signals were few and far between. Cellular c band signals come and go real quick as compared to other bands such as the 1900, 2500 MHz cell bands.

A few screenshots made with the TinySA Ultra are shown below. These screenshots were taken near Lithia Springs Ga., close to Interstate 20. A small vertical antenna was used, and no attempts were made to locate the source of these signals. But apparently, they were coming from a nearby cell tower. Personal time and traffic didn't allow for much signal hunting.

One thing I noticed about these c band cell signals is they act more like router signals. Usually when looking at a cell tower through the analyzer, the signals that are shown are consistent, or at least fairly consistent. The c band cell signals I saw to day would jump up and down in signal strength, and sometimes a small group of the signals would disappear, only to reappear a second or two later. Router signals act similar to this.

C band cell signals near Lithia Springs Ga.:
17646

17647

17648

I may look at these signals again when I have time and need to be in that area. I drove right by a loaded dower near downtown Atlanta that had c band cell signals a lot stronger than what is shown above. How close I was to the actual source of the signals shown above is unknown. There was a lot of clutter (buildings and such) so the tower could not be seen. It is also possible the signals shown above were from a mini cell or something similar. There just wasn't enough time to investigate. Maybe the proper time to investigate will be available another day sometime in the future.

[armadillo_115]

....One thing I noticed about these c band cell signals is they act more like router signals. Usually when looking at a cell tower through the analyzer, the signals that are shown are consistent, or at least fairly consistent. The c band cell signals I saw to day would jump up and down in signal strength, and sometimes a small group of the signals would disappear, only to reappear a second or two later. Router signals act similar to this....


Limited number of users this early in the process. I would guess those signals become more consistent/constant in the future as more users use the spectrum. Probably be a steady buzz in a years time.

Now if you can keep that buzz no closer than Atlanta.... I'll be happy. lol

[el bandido]

C band 5G cell frequencies operate on what is known as Time Division Duplexing or TDD. A Time Division Duplexing (TDD) system will transmit periodically as compared to a FDD system which transmits all the time.
More info on FDD and TDD in the link: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[armadillo_115]

According to that link:
5G FDD - Low frequency bands below 10 GHz
5G TDD - High frequency bands above 10 GHz

[el bandido]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[el bandido]

A Satmagazine article from May of 2020 in the link directly below does a good job of explaining 5G c band interference
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

5G and satellite interference is pretty much a world wide problem. The main difference between North American 5G and the rest of the world 5G is frequencies. This is why you see a lot of filters that work between 3.7 and 4,2 GHz. A 3.7-4.2 GHz filter is not much of a solution for 5G interference in North America.
India Link: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

There are also a couple of .pdf files attached to this thread that give a bit more information which may or may not be useful.

Here is a video from a person that does not seem to have a clue what 5G satellite interference is or does. it is included anyway because it is comical. This is a hobby so we should have fun, which the fellow in the video seems to do. I would say though, the idea of all of the satellite channels being moved to satellites between 91w and 107w is not correct.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Executive]

Hilarious video. "Expert"

[armadillo_115]

Maybe I should start my own C Band series on Youtube. :hmmm:

Take that time I was pushing the tractor with the pickup and it got away from me.. Jumped the log I had laid down and headed down the hill. That ribbon cable risked it's life to save my tractor, jumped up and wrapped around a lower hitch. Almost rolled the tractor, but finally brought it to a screeching halt. :bigthumbup:

Of course, it yanked the VBox, fta receiver, and Nintendo plumb off the entertainment center and pulled them all the way to the hole in the floor. Turned over the entertainment center and dumped the tv on the floor. Not only did nothing break... but I wound up with several extra feet of ribbon cable . :shithappens:

If I'd only thought to record it... would probably go VIRAL. :greed:

Not sure how that incident relates to 5G though. :offtopic:

[el bandido]

There have been reports of 5G C band interference in the lower part of the band between 3700-3850 MHz. This portion of the band is supposed to be cleared for the United States, but these lower frequencies are still used by a lot of other countries including Mexico. I imagine that since this portion of the band has been cleared, many people automatically think any anomalies or problems with these frequencies Has To Be C band interference.

This morning I had a problem with a tv channel on 97w. The transponder for the channel is 3780 H with a symbol rate around 6522. The FEC is 5/6, and the transponder is also DVB-S2, 8psk. A quick look at the minimum db lock chart shows I need around 9.5 db to open this channel.

The fta receiver shows I have between 13 and 13.5 db for a signal, which means I should be around 3 db Above the minimum signal amount that is needed tp lock this transponder. So why am I having problems with it this morning?

Here is a screenshot the channel. The top of the picture has artifacts, so it is easy to see a problem.
17652

The fta receiver shows a nice, solid 13-13.5 db signal for this transponder, but that number is not accurate. The fta receiver shows a smoother average of the signal, and is not accurate enough to show spikes and fluctuations of the signal like an analyzer can. What is really happening is the signal is dropping below the threshold for lock briefly, then the signal returns to a level above lock. This is why the tv picture jerks, has audio stutters, or other display problems.

Here is a screenshot of the analyzer with the transponder frequency tagged. The signal strength shown is -49.91dbm
17653

Here is another screenshot of the analyzer taken about 1 minute later. The signal strength shown is -50.91dbm
17654

The noise floor on the fta receiver is -60dbm. Most fta tuner specs are from about -60 to -30 dbm. A few of the TBS cards may have a more generous noise floor down to about -70dbm. But FTA receivers are usually -60 to -30 dbm or thereabouts.

Using -60 as the noise floor, the first screenshot shows a signal of. So the first analyzer screenshot shows a signal about 10db above the noise floor (60−49.91= 10.09). The second analyzer screenshot shows a signal about 9db above the noise floor (60−50.91=9.09) which is below what the receiver needs to lock the transponder.

The TinySA Ultra is not some wildly accurate piece of testing equipment, but it can give good information and show WHY reception problems exist. Watching the analyzer shows the 3780 H transponder signal going up and down several times a minute. The fta receiver shows more of an average signal, and is not designed to show rapid up or down spikes in signal strength.

All that is happening here is the signal is fluctuation, which causes picture problems. Why the 3780 H signal is jumping up and down is unknown. But the analyzer shows a fairly clean signal. If the problem was 5G interference, then we could expect to see on and off signal spikes surrounding the transponder.

Most likely, the same thing would be seen if other transponders that have equal or similar problems on my satellite receiver were carefully checked. We know some users have experienced actual 5G interference in c band. But it seems now the blame for any little reception problem is 5G.

[Terryl]

The best way to check for data loss (the picture breaking up due to loss of data bits in the data stream) is with a BER* generator/decoder setup, unfortunately we don't have a way to send a true BER free signal up to the satellite.

When the BER gets too high the FEC* cant fix the loss of data for that decoded byte (or bytes) of signal, then you start getting pixulation or total loss of lines of code

We use to setup on the bench the transmitter, receiver and antennas for a true BER check at low input signals, also with a harmonics generator and co-channel generator, injecting a BER free modulation (zero BER on the receiver) at the transmitter you can then see how the affect of interfering signals can give you a problem when you reach the limit of your FEC.

*BER= Bit Error Rate, the loss of data bits in a digital data stream.
*FEC= Forward Error Correction, used to correct a data stream with missing data bits.

One other thing is the fact that the 5G signals could also be coming from someone using a 5G phone close by, if your in a large city or town then this could be a possibility.

I live out in the boonies, I have a new AT&T cell tower about a mile away, I can just see the top of the tower, I know it has 5G on it as I now use a Netgear hotspot for internet, this device reports it's connection type, it is getting a 5G signal to and from that tower, I also checked my signals, I don't see any problems with them, (I have no way to look at them like El Bandido) the hotspot is located about 35 feet from the receiver and about 150 feet from the dish, and would be about 30 degrees of to the side of my BUD if I'm looking at satellites further East then 97W.

[armadillo_115]

I live out in the boonies, I have a new AT&T cell tower about a mile away, I can just see the top of the tower, I know it has 5G on it as I now use a Netgear hotspot for internet, this device reports it's connection type, it is getting a 5G signal to and from that tower, I also checked my signals, I don't see any problems with them, (I have no way to look at them like El Bandido) the hotspot is located about 35 feet from the receiver and about 150 feet from the dish, and would be about 30 degrees of to the side of my BUD if I'm looking at satellites further East then 97W.

But is the 5G you are receiving operating on the C Band Frequencies? Which would be Band 77.

Below quoted from a website updated September 3, 2022:

While AT&T won the 39GHz spectrum in May 2020, it’s still relying on its old 850MHz frequency band to offer low-band 5G to users in the US. The average 5G speed of AT&T mobile network currently is 59.3Mbps. According to a report, AT&T has launched 39GHz 5G in parts of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. It’s expected that AT&T’s 39GHz 5G will offer speed up to 3Gbps.
Band Frequency Band Type
n260 39GHz mmWave
n5 850MHz Low-band
n77 3.7GHz Mid-band sub-6 GHz
.................................................. .................................................. ........

mmwave only has a range of like 2 city blocks!
Mid-band (like n77) range is much further.

Edited: Sorry, I misidentified mmwave range for Mid-band range. Corrected above.

[armadillo_115]

Also found this: Published Feb 15th, 2022
<quote>
Technically, Mid-Band frequencies are still “Sub-6GHz,” but AT&T is specifically deploying its Mid-Band networks separately to its low-band networks. After months of delays, AT&T has finally deployed its mid-band network — but only in some cities. Mid-band 5G is considered the key to unlocking the dreams of 5G, thanks to the fact that it can cover larger geographic areas with fast connectivity. The cities where AT&T C-Band 5G can be found are below.
Dallas/Fort Worth
Houston
Austin
Chicago
Detroit
Jacksonville
Orlando
Miami
<end quote>

Those mid-bands are what will ruin our C Band Dish world. But may be a long time coming to the boonies... if ever.

[el bandido]

I have been looking for a device that would cost less and produce similar information as the TinySA Ultra. A software defined dongle seemed interesting so I decided to try one out for about $30.00 in cost. The software defined dongle (sdr) that I chose is nothing more than a modified DVB-T usb tuner. Here is the identification as seen using the "lsusb" command: Bus 002 Device 005: ID 0bda:2838 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL2838 DVB-T.

SDR devices usually only work to around 1.7-2 GHz, which is way short of satellite c band frequencies. But most c band lnbs used in North America convert down to 950-1450 MHz or thereabouts which would possibly make the DVB-T sdr dongle useful for looking at signals through the lnb. Free computer interfaces can be found, but none of them that I have seen have enough frequency coverage to be useful in detecting c band interference.

A DVB-T tuner is designed to cover a few MHz which probably limits its capabilities as a wide band scanner. The sdr interferes that I found only show a few MHz in range, but we really need something capable of showing at least several hundred MHz of range in order to be useful for identifying or locating c band interference. Shown below are some screenshots of a sdr interface using DVB-T sdr dongle and the TinySA Ultra for comparison.

A satellite transponder is too large to be shown on the sdr interface, so I used a satellite beacon as an example.

Here is the sdr interface showing a satellite beacon. Note that only a couple of MHz in spectrum can be shown:
17656

Here is the TinySA Ultra showing the same satellite beacon, and also showing the entire range fo frequencies for the lnb:
17657

This particular Software Defined Radio setup will be useless for c band interference checks because it does not have enough range. We need to see at least 100 MHz, preferably 2-300 MHz when searching for c band interference. So the software defined radio setup shown above is not going to work unless some major changes can be made.

I purchased PLZ‑SA354400B analyzer that cost roughly half the price of the TinySA Ultra. Shipping time for this device is estimated at two weeks. You can only do so much with cheap stuff. The TinySA Ultra is useful for finding c band interference, and is also useful for other things related to satellite tv. But I would like to find something that has similar capabilities that costs less money. We will see....

[Terryl]

Try a program called "SDR Console" it has a lot more options as far as bandwidth and filters.

And take a look at this hummer, it says it covers out to 2 GHz, [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[el bandido]

I don't see SDR Console covering over a few MHz. Any ideas on how to make it display a 50 - 100 MHz spread?

That SDR Software Defined Radio Receiver looks nice. I am not interested in buying anything else right now. Maybe you or someone else will try it???

[LNB-ZHAO]

Very meaningful discussion and sharing, testing is serious. LNB has been designed by me for 20 years, and it is certain that 5G communication will interfere with C-band TVRO. Now it is mainly because too many fake products have misled the market and consumers. Too many Passive filters and LNB in the market are not capable of fully resisting 5G interference. If the protection belt is only 20MHZ in the future, Passive filter and WR229 LNB must be adopted (when you need to receive horizontal polarization and vertical polarization, you also need OMT). 5G frequency interference with TVRO system will lead to a large number of intermodulation of LNB products, so that STB cannot modulate and demodulate. We have the product technology, but we don't have loyal customers. 5G interference with home TVRO and FSS will be more obvious in the future

[LNB-ZHAO]

I want to give a comprehensive explanation of LNB recently, especially for the interference of 5G communication frequency and C-BAND TVRO, and really explain the work of LNB in 5G frequency. With the gradual opening of 5G mobile communication, how to select truly effective LNB, especially for LNB NOISE, REJECTION, P1DB, Rejection. There are too many false product publicity in the market, which is poison to consumers. Most LNBS in the market, including many well-known brands, have false publicity. I will explain and show them in the future, and observe them through signal source interference test and spectrum analyzer test. The false hype has slowed the development of 5G, while affecting satellite TVRO's home entertainment.

[armadillo_115]

Interesting to see where this is headed. :popcorn:

[el bandido]

I want to give a comprehensive explanation of LNB recently, especially for the interference of 5G communication frequency and C-BAND TVRO, and really explain the work of LNB in 5G frequency. With the gradual opening of 5G mobile communication, how to select truly effective LNB, especially for LNB NOISE, REJECTION, P1DB, Rejection. There are too many false product publicity in the market, which is poison to consumers. Most LNBS in the market, including many well-known brands, have false publicity. I will explain and show them in the future, and observe them through signal source interference test and spectrum analyzer test. The false hype has slowed the development of 5G, while affecting satellite TVRO's home entertainment.

Welcome to Legitfta!
You are welcome to provide any useful information, but there are not many products available for 5G c band interference right now.

[el bandido]

No satellite thread would be complete without Rainiersatellite! They have everything needed to combat the 5G c band interference problem. Let's examine the Rainiersatellite info on 5G a bit. Two .PDF files are attached. Here is part of what is in them.

<START>
Q: Do I have a 5G interference problem?
A: If you previously received the signal well and all of a sudden is giving you problems it
could be 5G has fired up in your area. 5G usually will show you a high signal strength with “0� Quality and no signal lock or Quality dropping to 0 every 5 to 10 seconds on your
receiver.

Q: I get pixilation in my picture that comes and goes do I have 5G interference?
A: While pixilation can be caused by weak signal it could also be milder 5G. Check dish
alignment. If all is correct you probably experiencing a mild form of 5G interference. If
that is the case our filters will clean it up.

Q: I have a 8 foot or smaller dish. Will your filter help?
A: We recommend at least our 9 foot satellite dish or larger due to attenuation of satellite
signal when using a 5G filter Rainier stocks 9 foot to 16.4 foot solid 5G rejection reflectors.

Q: Will any LNB work with your filter?
A: While any LNB could be used the best performance is achieved when using our Norsat
3120 PLL LNB.

Q: Do I need the RED or BLUE filter?
A: I depends what frequency signals range you need to receive. For maximum protection
once 5G is fully deployed in 2023 we recommend the BLUE filter.Why does a 5G signal interfere with your satellite signal?
This is due to the simple fact that the local terrestrial signal is much stronger then the satellite signal.
This overloads the LNB and or the receivers front end.
(see spectrum analysis below)
How to solve the problem.
The only way to solve this is to use a special bandpass filter between your LNB and feedhorn. This will
attenuate the offending 5G signals prevent current or future problems.
<END>

Pretty easy to see all Rainiersatellite wants to do is sell you something, whether you need it or not. Stupid to suggest a Norsat 3120 lnb because it operates in the frequencies you would be trying to reject.

Funny that a 9 foot dish is suggested over an 8 foot dish. There is no logical reason for this except Rainiersatellite would like to sell you a 9 foot dish. Only help here is the pocketbook of Rainier. A bigger dish might help, but it would need to be Bigger. A foot of size difference would help the interference problem little if any on 2 equal quality dish antennas.

No mention of relocating the dish either. More or less, if you have problems, then buy his products. Again the .pdf files are attached in case someone wants to see them.

Also no mention of lnbs that are designed to reject 5G c band signals. The reason for this is Rainier doesn't sell them.

[eastof111]

After many years of his BS, hard to believe he is still in business.

[el bandido]

Forgot to mention that Rick Caylor is currently selling the same 5G filters that Rainier has. Looks like Rick wants about 100 dollars less per filter. So you lose about 200 dollars if you buy a pair of 5G filters from Rainier.

[armadillo_115]

This is not new info, but something I had not considered before:
5G interference on C Band dishes isn't the only problem. Been reading how some people have already needed filters for OTA TV due to LTE interference. More problems are likely to arise because T-Mobile Home Internet 5G is expanding use of the 600-700Mhz spectrum. (Band 71,IIRC) This was formerly TV channels 38-50. The proximity makes it more likely to bleed down to the remaining TV UHF channels. One site with info:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The good news: Even if you should need a filter for your OTA antenna... It isn't near as expensive as one for your c Band dish. :thumbup:

[armadillo_115]

After many years of his BS, hard to believe he is still in business.

He must be the greatest salesman in the world. After checking out the channel lineups.... I see almost nothing that I can't get FTA on C Band. Other than Sports which I personally don't want. Maybe good for a sports fan?

I don't see a 'premium' movie channels listed anywhere. Am I missing something somewhere?

Now IF a person didn't have a Bud, and IF the service was on KU... I could maybe see some value.

Just my 2 coppers.

[el bandido]

OTA or terrestrial television interference is not a problem for me. My highest tv station in frequency is 605 MHz. I have not seen any problems with the channels on 605 MHz when my T-Mobile Home Internet is operating in the 600 MHz range, Others may not be so fortunate.

Listed below are some links that mainly deal with rtl-sdr devices. I have listed them since software defined radio or sdr was mentioned as a possibility for finding c band interference. From everything that I have seen, sdr devices will not be very useful for looking at or finding satellite c band interference. The sdr system is too narrow to see enough frequency spectrum at one time to be useful. SDR devices are useful for other things that are satellite reflated, and this is why the links are listed below.

The 60 dollar frequency analyzer should be here tomorrow, or maybe Friday. When it gets here depends on how the postal service feels about delivering it. Will be interesting to see how well it works as compared to the TinySA Ultra.


SDR related links:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Satellite Beacon List:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[eastof111]

"More problems are likely to arise because T-Mobile Home Internet 5G is expanding use of the 600-700Mhz spectrum. (Band 71,IIRC) This was formerly TV channels 38-50. The proximity makes it more likely to bleed down to the remaining TV UHF channels."

I had that problem when T-Mobile switched.... had to drive about 35 miles to the Channel Master distribution warehouse located near the Phoenix Mesa Gateway airport and spoke to one of the techs there about the reception problems I was having. He suggested to try the attached filter and if it didn't work he would give me a refund. Works great!

17661

[MikeB]

"More problems are likely to arise because T-Mobile Home Internet 5G is expanding use of the 600-700Mhz spectrum. (Band 71,IIRC) This was formerly TV channels 38-50. The proximity makes it more likely to bleed down to the remaining TV UHF channels."

I had that problem when T-Mobile switched.... had to drive about 35 miles to the Channel Master distribution warehouse located near the Phoenix Mesa Gateway airport and spoke to one of the techs there about the reception problems I was having. He suggested to try the attached filter and if it didn't work he would give me a refund. Works great!

17661

I actually checked the latest Channel Master LTE/5G filter that starts at 608Mhz, with a spectrum analyzer. It kills LTE/5G deader than a door-nail. It's also power-passing, if that's important to you However, it does slightly KNICK RF36.

IMO, it's the top of the line for people needing this sort of filter, and the price isn't that bad.

[el bandido]

Excellent info!
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

The link above shows the OTA filter and also states it has a 30 day free trial. I may try one!
Filter specs:
Frequencies Pass = 5 - 608 MHz
Frequencies Block = 609 - 3000 MHz

Here is what one of my OTA antennas looks like when viewed through the TinySA Ultra:
17662

For reference, I marked my last tv transponder, which is 605 MHz. I also marked roughly where cell services begin, which is around 620 MHz. The details of these two marks can be seen in the top right of the screencapture.
The OTA tv frequencies are of course to the left of the 605 MHz mark, and cell frequencies to the right of the 605 MHz mark. So it is easy to see the cell signals are much stronger than the OTA frequencies.

Also there is a fat group of scraggly-looking lines starting about 740 MHz and running to 770 MHz. Some of these lines seem to be on Time Division Duplex (TDD) and transmit intermittently.

The cellular C band signals are also TDD and transmit intermittent. So you need a device that has a fast response time and is able to capture groups of frequencies over a decent range of spectrum. A RTL-SDR or any Software Defined Radio System are probably not capable of displaying a group of frequencies such as those seen above between 740 and 770 MHz.

Also a 30 MHz group scraggly looking lines similar to what is seen above between 740 and 770 MHz will tear c band reception to pieces IF they are in the c band spectrum. This is why some people are having problems in C band. I have seen a similar group of scraggly looking lines that were actually in Satellite C band when visiting downtown Atlanta.

I will see if I can get one of those Channel Master OTA filters so we can see what id does to the unwanted signals. I bet that whole group of signals between 740 and 770 MHz disappears once the Channel Master filter is installed. There is really no way to hide how effective or ineffective the filter is. Simply take a sample of analyzer screen recordings before installing the filter, then take a sample of recordings after installing the filter. A comparison of the two samples will show exactly what the filter does or does not do.

[mememeth]

17663updated tinysa ultra menu, enjoy

[el bandido]

The PLZ-SA354400B analyzer arrived yesterday. The total cost with shipping for this item was $57.42. The PLZ-SA354400B was purchased from WalMart online. Several places on the Internet sell this item which means a lesser price is possible. Shipping time was about two weeks. Analyzers that start with LTDZ are also available and probably work similar to the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer. But the LTDZ analyzers seem to be earlier versions.

There are two versions of the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer. One is 135 MHz to 4400 MHz, and the other is 35 MHz to 4400 MHz. I opted for the 35 MHz version. Shown below is the analyzer with packaging.

17670


17671


17672


No instructions or software download links came with this analyzer! That was sort of expected for the price.


17673

[el bandido]

It took me several hours to find and install software that would work with the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer. I run mainly Ubuntu Linux, but also have Windows. I managed to find software distributions that will work on Linux and Windows. The screenshot below is from the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer looking at Horizontal transponders on 97w C band. The cursor is over the 3780H transponder that is currently available on 97w.

17674


For about 60 U.S. dollars a person can buy what is needed to Properly look through the c band lnb on your satellite dish for cellular c band interference. At minimum, you need the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer, and a dc voltage blocking device which costs a few dollars.


IMO, the TinySA Ultra analyzer is much better than the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer. But for those that are cost conscious, on a tight budget, or whatever, the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer.can do at least part of the job of locating c band interference.

[el bandido]

AliExpress has the 135-4400 MHz version of the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer for less than 40 U.S. Dollars with shipping included.

17675

[el bandido]

Here is a screenshot of my PLZ-SA354400B analyzer looking at the vertical transponders on 117w:
17682

Looks like my PLZ-SA354400B analyzer is making duplicates of the transponders in the 500-700MHz range. Normally I would not scan like this because the range of my lnb is 950-2150 MHz. I made this scan just to see what it looked like. I do not see any duplicates in the 3-4 GHz range. This means that so far, a 3GHz filter is not needed! The TinySA Ultra makes duplicates of lower frequencies in the 3GHz range, so a filter to block any signals that are less than 3GHz is useful.

It should be noted that both the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer and the TinySA ultra analyzer. inject signals as they scan. So far this has not been a big deal, but it can be seen sometimes if you are watching satellite tv and scanning the satellite transponders at the same time.

The signals the analyzer is injecting can be seen here in BER:
17683


The effects of the injected signal last less than a second. Note BER is back to normal here:
17684


Note: Some fta satellite receivers will display some sort of reading for BER. Others won't.

[armadillo_115]

EB, did you ever find a manual for the PLZ-SA354400B?
Can background color be changed on the PLZ-SA354400B? That yellow would be an eye killer for me.

IMO, the TinySA wins hands down. The documentation, user reviews, and support more than outweighs the extra purchase price. I don't (really) need either as long as I don't have suspected 5G RI anyway. (It would be kinda fun to drive around with an antenna to see what all is out there though)

Too bad there are so few C Band dishes still in use: With one of these analyzers, a person could pick up some spare cash doing RI tests for others.

Thanks EB for all the testing you have done! These testings may help several of us make purchase decisions in the future. :ter:

[el bandido]

I found a manual for the PLZ-SA354400B in German. This analyzer does not have near the options as compared to the TinySA Ultra, so IMO, you don't really need a manual for the PLZ-SA354400B.

Some features such as background color and font size may be adjusted, Here are the color options in Linux. (Windows has a few more color options.)

17685


17686

It is a good idea to have a 3GHz filter for the TinySa Ultra. The price of the Ultra and filter is around 200 U.S. dollars. This price includes a few accessories such as cable adapters.

The price of the PLZ-SA354400B can be around forty dollars with shipping included. The 50 MHz version of the PLZ-SA354400B is about 20 dollars more. Purchasing the needed adapters and connectors for the PLZ-SA354400B is 20 dollars or less. This means you would have somewhere between 60-80 dollars invested if you purchased the 50 MHz PLZ-SA354400B. This money is less than or about the same as the cheapest U.S. 5G lnbf that is currently on the market.

There are all sorts of things that you can do with these analyzers. Yes, they are cheap, and yes, their accuracy can be questioned. But they show you what is happening inside your antenna system. These analyzers also show how effective band filters are.

[armadillo_115]

Word of caution:
Been searching around for cheap Chinese 5G waveguide filters just for future reference. I occasionally find filters listed as 3800-4200Mhz (Red) filters. BUT.... Upon viewing the photos or specifications say 3700-4200Mhz band passing!

Gotta watch the sneaky rascals!

[ArloG]

Yeah. A few thoughts.
The RTL dongles were only designed at first for DVB-T reception. It was the brilliance of the guys who dived in the see what else could be done with them that spawned the whole SDR revolution.
My opinion w/o an evening of googlin'.
Still. Those 20 buck dongles have only an 8 Mhz (just a number I tossed in) bandwidth. Some of the SDR applications have a frequency scanner plugin. SDR#, SDRPlay have scanner..spectrum analyzer add ons.
Never the less. They only see that 8 mHz 'slice' of spectrum at a time. There's a sweep oscillator somewhere in some form in there inside SDR applications that emulate grabbing higher bandwidths.

'Diller mentioned drop some bucks and take one for the team in another thread. The SDRPlay RPS2 has been used one hell of a lot. Stellar in performance compared with one of the RTL dongles.
There are better ones out there now for the same price I paid a few years ago for the RSP2.
They have "real" filtering that the RTL dongles simply lack. Notch, band pass...etc. Real ones. But can also be complimented with software DSP filtering.

The real bucks came in the form of an Icom IC-R8600 receiver. Not a toy. As far from an RTL dongle as you could believe. DC-Daylight. But it aint a spectrum analyzer, network analyzer like my HP-Agilent.

So. We're in 2 conundrums here. Ones with fixed dishes and ones with polar mounts.
Filters and LNB's with filters are an all-or-nothing thing. For the "fixed-dishers" getting 5g so-called 5g interference. Not much of an issue. If the problems are solved.
Movable dishes? Maybe you do get (I don't yet...never, I hope) 5g crap. And need it gone.
You just committed of blocking a portion of the c-band for all satellites.
Slapping another LNB and feed on the dish for unfiltered reception would be a pain. I guess some sort of crafty diseqc switch, combiner wizardry probably maybe could be Einsteined up with inline filtering.

We're unique in the USA receiving c-band. The European forums. Where ku reception abounds. I see a lot of the time. And I'll do the best I can on this. Not a verbatim quote, for sure!
"Wot? Youmean theh's actually something ON c-band to be wotched?? Bollocks! I deh-you to prove it"
Then the wanker posts a response with a link to satellite charts on this side of the swamp.
They're clueless.

Oh. Back to the subject. It's an all or nothing thing. You either put up with 5g interference on a satellite or 3. Or filter all of them.
Right EB? (why when I initialize your name here do I think of Green Acres?)
I believe you said that 5g interference was apparent only if the satellite was low in the arc, and a 5g tower was inline with the dish. Or the dish was aimed in the vicinity of an interference source. Or close proximity sources.

"Filters" remind me of the old CATV days with a string of notch filters hanging off the pole if you didn't sub to HBO, Max, SHO.
Or as we called it. Late night ladders and hot hairpin days. Joking, of course!

LNB-ZHAO. One for you. A really good c-band lnbf. Rock solid stability. Switchable filters. Diseqc, 22kHz controlled? Neo became the one. Because he was "The one".
Take care of the issues all in one unit. Don't even make it pretty. Plain brown box it. Show it works. Burn them in at manufacturing. Not talking about a $30 lnbf here. But also not at Norsat prices either. We don't do it because its easy. We do it because we have software, robots, and ovens.

[el bandido]

I installed the Channel Master LTE/5G filter into one of my OTA antennas Shown below are spectrum analyzer results.

TinySA Ultra before filter:
17687


TinySA Ultra after filter:
17688

All of the measured interference or un-wanted signals are gone after the filter is installed. The
TinySA Ultra shows a noticeable signal drop in the OTA tv signals after the filter is installed. Anytime a filter is installed, there will be signal loss, but I don't think it is as much as the TinySA Ultra shows.

Here are the PLZ-SA354400B analyzer results of the same filter install:

PLZ-SA354400B before filter:
17689


PLZ-SA354400B after filter:
17690

[MikeB]

I installed the Channel Master LTE/5G filter into one of my OTA antennas Shown below are spectrum analyzer results.

The TinySA Ultra shows a noticeable signal drop in the OTA tv signals after the filter is installed. Anytime a filter is installed, there will be signal loss, but I don't think it is as much as the TinySA Ultra shows.



By my measurements, the Channel Master filter is about a 2dB drop maximum, and only seems to affect the higher rf channels the most, IE: 34-36. Most stations at that high a frequency, are typically very high powered, so a 2dB drop shouldn't really hurt at all.

[el bandido]

Was Channel Master to embarrassed to publish the insertion loss specs for this filter? My highest tv mux is at 605 MHz.

With Channel Master filter installed:
17694


Without Channel Master filter installed:
17695

I'm not interested in taking a 2 something db loss in signal unless I have to. For me, the Channel Master filter will be removed and put in the spare parts drawer. It does at least a decent job of removing the unwanted signals. Other locations will have different results. I don't normally have things installed inline between the antenna and receiver unless they are needed. Right now, I do not seem to need this Channel Master filter.


The satellite band pass filters will have a similar effect on satellite signals. You can expect least a 1 or 2 db loss in signal when installing a satellite c band filter. I guess the Channle Master tv filter was all of twenty dollars, so no great loss for me. The cheapest satellite band pass filter that we know works costs hundreds of dollars for one filter. Make sure you need the satellite filters before you buy them and understand what will happen to the usable signals once the filters are installed. The insertion loss of a band pass filter cannot be recovered by using any line amplifier that I know of.

[armadillo_115]

Agree with all you said. Notch or bandpass filters always introduce some loss. Nature of the beast. Just piecing coax together with F connectors and a barrel connector create loss. (But not 2db) Grounding blocks cause db loss too.... but ya best not run without them! It's all in doing what you have to do.


..... Make sure you need the satellite filters before you buy them and understand what will happen to the usable signals once the filters are installed. The insertion loss of a band pass filter cannot be recovered by using any line amplifier that I know of.

I expect many of us unnecessarily lose a db or more. Dish needs fine tuning. Lossy coax, connectors, and switches. Lossy lnb's. Under-performing receivers. etc. I know 'cause I'm lazier and cheaper than most. We can get THAT signal back anyway.

If necessary, one could probably 'recover' part of that loss by switching from rg6 to rg11. Or a larger dish. :brows:

[ArloG]

Actuallly there are l band preamps a-mundo. With DC pass-thru, even!
Not cheap though. Just hoping that it's understood that signal attenuation from the lnbf IF amp (out the cable to your casa) does not equate to weak signal in the low noise amplifier section.
I can vouch for Belden 9913 and Times LMR-400 cable in the amateur radio world. If cable quality is that big of an issue, consider LMR-400-75.

[armadillo_115]

Actuallly there are l band preamps a-mundo. With DC pass-thru, even!
Not cheap though. Just hoping that it's understood that signal attenuation from the lnbf IF amp (out the cable to your casa) does not equate to weak signal in the low noise amplifier section.
I can vouch for Belden 9913 and Times LMR-400 cable in the amateur radio world. If cable quality is that big of an issue, consider LMR-400-75.

Interesting. Didn't know LMR-400 came in 75 ohms, only knew about the 50 ohm version. Very cost prohibitive.

[Terryl]

LMR-400-75, nice stuff but hard to run,doesn't bend as good as RG-6, connectors are a bit extensive, and requires a special tool to crimp them.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And yes it is a bit on the expensive side, 500 foot roll at $800. (smallest I could find) And one connector at $47, would be OK if you had a very long run from the dish to the house, you would need flexible jumpers to connect to the LNB and receiver as this stuff is 3/8 of an inch in diameter.

[mememeth]

search flebay rg-11 gel fill , also reasonability priced crimp “ f” connectors, look for multi size crimp tool, dies go from tiny rg174 to rg8/11/ lmr400, one die will do 3 or 4 sizes, get ratchet style, for weather proofing use “ plumbers goop “ at big box stores, watch $$ some expensive some reasonable, 4 oz tube about $ 4.00, if want to then put shrink tube over it,

[el bandido]

To be clear,
If you install a mechanical filter to block unwanted 5G c band signals, then you lose whatever the insertion loss is of the mechanical filter until the mechanical filter is removed. For example, Alga Microwave Filter,Part # 210031803K has an advertised maximum insertion loss of 1.3 db. Whatever the loss of this filter actually is cannot be removed from the satellite dish system by using a larger coax.

Usually a consumer satellite dish will have some room for improvement in the signal area. You may be able to adjust the skew, align the dish, or do something else to bring the received signal up. But there is nothing you can do to replace or cancel the insertion loss of a mechanical filter.

I would not notice much difference if I lost a db or two of signal on my 3.6 meter Prodelin dish on the majority of satellite tv channels. But a db or two of loss would have a noticeable effect for me on some feeds that have 8psk and apsk transponders with a high fec. I also have mostly rg11 installed in my antenna systems, but rg11 does very little to improve the signal. The coax is automatically amplified that runs between the lnb and fta receiver. This is why the signal apparently stays the same whether you are using 10 feet or 200 feet of coax between the lnb and fta receiver.

The 5G interference in c band has not really begun yet because not much of it has been deployed as compared to the amount of licenses that were auctioned. There are enough licenses to put 5G c band signals on almost every cell tower in the United States. So far, or at least in my area, the only place where 5G c band signals exist on cell towers is in densely populated areas. This is certain to change in the next couple of years.

[el bandido]

C band users in the U.K also have a 5G c band interference problem. Here is a link to one of their threads discussing it:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Most of the cavity band pass filters that would block the 5G c band signals have an advertised insertion loss of 1-2 db. A 1-2 db loss in signal will not have much effect on a 12 foot dish that is being used in North America. But the lower you go in dish size, the bigger the 1-2 db insertion loss becomes. For example, a 6 foot c band dish would lose a noticeable amount of channels if a 2 db loss in signal was inserted into it. For this reason, don't just go buy and install a mechanical c band 5G filter without exploring all of the other options first.

Places like Rainier Satellite want you to buy a mechanical filter first. Rainier wants you to call instead of discussing the problem in the forum where everyone can see. The Rainier satellite solution is to decide you need a filter without doing any testing. Keep in mind the Rainier mechanical filter is about 100 dollars higher than anyone else. So this is a loss of two hundred dollars if you purchase two!

The Rainier Satellite Solution to 5G c band interference:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I've been having some issues lately with my signal breaking up and dropping all together. Wasn't sure what was causing this Contacted Rainier tech support on the phone for help. They explained to me I was experiencing a interference problem from a newly turned on 5G tower. After discussing with Rainier I ordered their 5G blue filters to place between the feedhorn and Norsat LNB's. Got them installed last weekend. All previous problems have stopped. My signal is solid as a rock. I highly recommend going with Rainier for any satellite problem you may have. These guys are great!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[eastof111]

Places like Rainier Satellite want you to buy a mechanical filter first. Rainier wants you to call instead of discussing the problem in the forum where everyone can see. The Rainier satellite solution is to decide you need a filter without doing any testing. Keep in mind the Rainier mechanical filter is about 100 dollars higher than anyone else. So this is a loss of two hundred dollars if you purchase two!

The Rainier Satellite Solution to 5G c band interference:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Seems like the owner is posting his comment/question and replying to himself.

[el bandido]

Microwave towers for the phone company gave the c band satellite dishes interference problems 40-50 years ago. Ironic to see these same microwave towers being used today to create interference again on c band satellite dishes.


17820

17821

[el bandido]

Outlandish solutions have been proposed to fix 5G c band interference. Anything that has to do with tin foil will probably not work unless it is being used as a RF fence. Wrapping or covering a lnb in tinfoil or wrapping the scalar ring in tin foil, or even wrapping the coax in tin foil is not going to help. The reason for this is simple: The interference is the signal on the satellite dish and not on the lnb. Great if any of these tin foil solutions work for you, but shielding a c band lnb that is inside an aluminum housing makes no sense when you think about it.

[Fearless]

I've seen pictures of those "Foil solutions". Good for a chuckle or two. :) But seriously I use 3M aluminum tape for additional protection from RF interference. The reason they use 10 bolts to hold a LNB to a feedhorn is to prevent RF leakage. Radars are good at causing interference. Band Pass Filters have been around for a long time.

17825

[ArloG]

Wow. Probably repeating what's already scattered around in this thread.
Filters block a portion of the local oscillator frequency band where the low noise amplifier section of the lnbf is downconverted from the 3.7-4.2 GHz c band to 1450-950 MHz fed to the coax.
So what interference is there at the feed is amplified along with the satellite signal. The internal electronics of the lnbf are wreaking havoc from being flooded with the interfering freqs.

Now. If I'm under the correct assumption. An lnbf with built-in filtering is going to handle that task at the low noise amplifier. Or before the mixer/frequency conversion and spit out as the L.O., l band your coax sends to the receiver. A much better approach.

With any connector or splice in a run of RF transmission line. You will have an insertion loss. RG type is about the worst. But don't get confused thinking that the signal on your receiver after inserting filters, extra splices. If it happens to display 2 dB less than it did before the change. It is not that the dish electronics or your satellite signal received at the dish is attenuated.
Your local oscillator frequency signal strength has been reduced. And receivers should do a pretty good job at managing the signal. You have seen the AGC bar in your signal meter.
There will be a threshold where the coax signal will cause the receiver to fall off and drop out. Butagain. The satellite signal entering the lnbf throat is exactly the same.

Now. If long runs of coax are needed. You want the least loss/ft that you can afford. And that's where fat coax and big connectors comes in.
Many may not remember the lna and separate downconverter days. The very short connection from the lna to the downconverter box was with N Tyoe connectors. And if a cable was used to connect them. It was microwave cable. But what came out of the box to your house. Or headend. Was the local oscillator frequency. In the pressurized waveguide days the downconverter had an output signal level pot.
Because if the connection was 20 feet away from the dish electronics. You didn't want to plow a signal to the receiver that would saturate its front end electronics.

In a fixed or limited arc satellite system. Determining the direction and source of interference may be helpful. Some of us have experimented with different ways of doing just that.
If your scalar is fixed on the dish. You may even be over illuminating it by it being a touch too far out. I don't trust strut bar mounted scalars that are stabbed where the arms bolt to them.
Anyway. You can accept interference. Buy filters and craigslist or eBay them if they don't work (vendors aren't liking try-and-return). Buy properly filtered lnbf. The best way. If in fact the filtering isn't hidden inside right before the coax connection.

Drive around. Look on towers for microwave antennas. Most may have a radome over them. Yeah, to keep birds and bird crap off of them. But look closer. The have a rim extension. And that rim extension has a layer of impregnated radar absorbing material. RAM. Stealth aircraft stuff.
Its there to not only reject off axis microwave interference. But to absorb side lobe interference. Who knows. A wrap of aluminum flashing or stiff screening and grounding it good around your dish rim may do wonders. Maybe some crafty guys here with 5g interference and know the direction it comes from could try that. Can't hurt, right!
Oh. Also. I don't know so much about aluminum tape and foil around your lnb or waveguide joints. If that were the case. Those little tiny holes on your microwave oven door window would have you with boiled eggs for eyeballs in a jif. Do the math. The wavelength for the frequency. Divide that by 1/4, 1/2, 5/8. If you have a gap that big. Better shop for another piece of hardware.

I'm thinking that if this 5g thread keeps going on. Until something remarkable comes out to cure the issue. It's kind of a no brainer. The stuff here is just crap I know.