Incompatible STB firmware or broken 22Khz Controlled Switch?

[WilburSmith]

I got two KU band dishes set up. One is 90cm and motorized. The other is 100cm and the dishe mount assemply is mounted on the top of the pole and faces 99.2W permanently.

I acquired a 22Khz Controlled Switch. Specs:

Insertation Loss: 3db
Power Passing: 500mA Max
Frequesncy Range: 950-24ooMhz

Here is how the Lnbs are coupled to the switch:

LNB 1 (0 HZ) - Dish pointing permanently at 99.2W
LNB 2 (22KHz) - Motorized dish


I wired everything up and did a scan on LNB 1 and only picked up Montana PBS and got one 'wild feed' of a car show in Lousiana. I tried LNB 2 and all worked accordingly.

I then checked my settings for LNB 1 (EG PrimeStar 99.2) and everythnig was perfect!

The Koqit stb I have will not allow me to have the setting so that 9750/10600 is active with 22K set to off. There is no way to enforce this setting this way.

As you analyse the pics you'll see this. INFOWARS on 12095 will not be picked up on 9750 but when the LNB frequency is changed to 9750/10600 it gets picked up. But then the switch will not work as intended.

The only conclusion I can seem to arrive at is:

1. The switch must be faulty.
2. It seems at the moment that were the firmware to allow 9750/10600 to be active with 22K in the 'Off' position this may work, but again this isn't an option.
3. I disconnected the cables from the switch and then coupled the coax so LNB 1 would go straight to the stb. I then did a blind scan and picked up all the channels on 99.2. I then reconnected everything to see if pre-scanned channels on LNB 1 would now get picked up and that failed as well. Actually, I can only see Montana PBS, and wild feeds BJCA New Orleans on 11750/H/1499 and WSAV Unit 9 on 11786/V/5834. The known channels did not appear. Just Montana PBS.

So what are your thoughts?

Thanks for reading and stopping by!178281782917830

[el bandido]

It is probably a good idea to avoid using 22KHz tone switches in fta antenna systems for more than one reason. Install a diseqc switch and your problems should disappear.

Antenna systems with motors should have switches or anything else installed after the motor or motor controller. Wire as: Receiver--->Motor (or controller)---> switches---> lnbs

Understand the limits of 22KHz tone switches if you need to use them:
22KHz tone switches power both lnbs all the time.
22KHz tone switches cannot be used with more than one universal type lnb.
22KHz tone switches can cause scanning problems in some receiver models.

It is better to use a diseqc switch installed after the motor or motor controller. Makes life much easier.

[WilburSmith]

If I installl a diseqc switch doesn't that mean I will have to transition from USALS to diseqc?

When you say "22KHz tone switches cannot be used with more than one universal type lnb." You mean that both lnbs must be same brand?

So am I understanding correctly, the switch is mounted in some place outside near the dish?

[el bandido]

In ku band, universal lnb has 9750/10600 for l.o. frequencies. What is referred to as a standard ku lnb in North America will have on l.o. frequency of 10750.

Universal lnbs use 22KHz tone to switch between the l.o. frequencies, and this is why they should not be used with 22KHz tone switches unless you only want to use one l.o. frequency such as 10600.

Switches and other items placed between the receiver and motor can cause communication problems between the receiver and motor.

A diseqc switch placed after the motor or dish controller will work fine with either diseqc 1.2 commands or USALS.

So yeas. Switches are mounted outside, after the ku motor in most systems.

[WilburSmith]

In ku band, universal lnb has 9750/10600 for l.o. frequencies. What is referred to as a standard ku lnb in North America will have on l.o. frequency of 10750.

Universal lnbs use 22KHz tone to switch between the l.o. frequencies, and this is why they should not be used with 22KHz tone switches unless you only want to use one l.o. frequency such as 10600.

Switches and other items placed between the receiver and motor can cause communication problems between the receiver and motor.

A diseqc switch placed after the motor or dish controller will work fine with either diseqc 1.2 commands or USALS.

So yeas. Switches are mounted outside, after the ku motor in most systems.

Well after an explanation like this it leaves me scratching my head as to why such a device is even sold in the first place. Thanks for explaining this.!

[WilburSmith]

I wired the 22 Hz switch up according to your instructions and it didn't change a thing. Frankly speaking, based on your experience and my field trial the company selling this crap should be embarrassed. It's a waste of money and does not perform per expectations and selling points on web site.

But lets see if I made any mistakes that may change the situation. 0 Hz went to lnb mounted on dish pointed solely at 99.2. 22KHz went directly to lnb on motorized dish. Then 'receiver' on switch was wired to LNB input on motor.

This was the correct wiring scheme correct?


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[el bandido]

What are the make/models of the two lnb's being used????

[Keith Brannen]

If both LNBs are Universal (LO 9750/10600) then you can't use a 22 KHZ switch.
If the LNB on the motorized dish is a Standard (LO 10750) then you would put that LNB on the 0 KHZ port (and off in the receiver).
Then you set up the 99 dish LNB with a LO of 10600 (do not set up as Universal) and KHZ in the on position in the receiver, and on the 22 KHZ port.

I am using 22 KHZ switches (as well as 4x1 and 8x1 diseqc switches) in my fixed dishes set-up quite effectively. In the past, I have used Universal LNBs on 22KHZ switches without any problem, as long as you follow the above set-up.

[MikeB]

I wired the 22 Hz switch up according to your instructions and it didn't change a thing. Frankly speaking, based on your experience and my field trial the company selling this crap should be embarrassed. It's a waste of money and does not perform per expectations and selling points on web site.

But lets see if I made any mistakes that may change the situation. 0 Hz went to lnb mounted on dish pointed solely at 99.2. 22KHz went directly to lnb on motorized dish. Then 'receiver' on switch was wired to LNB input on motor.

This was the correct wiring scheme correct?


1783417835

Did you hook those switches up without turning the power OFF to everything? IF the coax was hot when you screwed the cable onto that switch, that alone is likely to have fried it. 22Khz switches are extremely sensitive to power glitches. MUCH more so than Diseqc switches.

[WilburSmith]

If both LNBs are Universal (LO 9750/10600) then you can't use a 22 KHZ switch.
If the LNB on the motorized dish is a Standard (LO 10750) then you would put that LNB on the 0 KHZ port (and off in the receiver).
Then you set up the 99 dish LNB with a LO of 10600 (do not set up as Universal) and KHZ in the on position in the receiver, and on the 22 KHZ port.

I am using 22 KHZ switches (as well as 4x1 and 8x1 diseqc switches) in my fixed dishes set-up quite effectively. In the past, I have used Universal LNBs on 22KHZ switches without any problem, as long as you follow the above set-up.


Both my LNBs are indeed universal. When I began reading what you wrote it sounded like maybe one LNB could be a universal one but the other had to be specifically a LO Frequency 10750MHz unit. But because your very last sentence stated "In the past, I have used Universal LNBs on 22KHZ switches without any problem, as long as you follow the above set-up." leads me to believe that I still can use two universal lnbs as long as I make the setting adjustments you spoke about.

Or do I need to get this one too:?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[WilburSmith]

No! But now that you bring that up for future reference how do you test a switch for operability?

[el bandido]

LNBF's are LNBF's. You can take a couple of 5 gallon buckets full of ku lnbf's, and probably get different results of some type out of half of them. About all you can do is pick one and buy it. LNB's usually provide better performance, but they cost a lot more money. A 1759 l.o. lnb does not cover below 11700 MHz. Depends on what satellites you can get on whether you would notice this or not. The difference between a lnb and lnbf is the lnb does not have the feed built into it. LNB's are usually commercial and lnbf's are for the homeowner.

A switch can be tested to a degree with a voltmeter or milliamp meter. The best way to test a switch without using any test equipment is to remove the switch from the system and replace it with a barrel connector, then see if the lost signal returns. For my uses, I have found it is best to avoid using 22KHz switches.

[WilburSmith]

@Keith Thanks again for the input! I assumed per your instructions that both can be universal LNBs so long as I make the settings you noted. This time my 99 dish pulled in everything it could see. The motorized dish was a no go.

Just to be clear. can 1 LNB be a universal and the other one like this one ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) or must BOTH universal lnbs be removed entirely from this scenario?

Thanks!

[WilburSmith]

I tested with my miltimeter and it appears to be ok.

[Keith Brannen]

That is the correct LNB that you need, but if you use it, again, you have to set up the Universal with a LO of 10600 on the 22 KHZ port. If you want to scan the lower half of the Universal as well (for example, on your motorized dish, such as 34.5w) then you have a problem, because you can't when using a 22 KHZ switch. You would need a diseqc switch to accomplish that.

When I have used a Universal LNB with a 22 KHZ switch, I have had it as a LO of 10600, and on the 22 KHZ port (as I mentioned in my above post). I have also had one when I only wanted to scan the lower band, so have had it with a LO of 9750 on the 0 KHZ port.

[WilburSmith]

That is the correct LNB that you need, but if you use it, again, you have to set up the Universal with a LO of 10600 on the 22 KHZ port. If you want to scan the lower half of the Universal as well (for example, on your motorized dish, such as 34.5w) then you have a problem, because you can't when using a 22 KHZ switch. You would need a diseqc switch to accomplish that.

When I have used a Universal LNB with a 22 KHZ switch, I have had it as a LO of 10600, and on the 22 KHZ port (as I mentioned in my above post). I have also had one when I only wanted to scan the lower band, so have had it with a LO of 9750 on the 0 KHZ port.


With my motorized dish I'm currently using USALS to jump from sat to sat. El bandido suggested earlier that using a diseqc switch will allow me to keep using my usals settings. My next questions, based on what you stated above is:

1) If I just get a diseqc switch can I still keep using both universal lnbs?
2) if no to #1, can I keep one univeral lnb and just buy this one: [Only registered and activated users can see links]
3) Will a new diseqc switch allow me to scan both the upper and lower bands of a universal lnb on both dishes ? If so, does this mean the stb settings are configured once and no further adjustments will be required?

The ideal situation would be to get a diseqc switch. Keep using USALS to move my dish. And not having to worry about which halfs of the spectrum I'm able to scan. It seems from what I'm learning and what is being suggested this is the case.

[el bandido]

All I run is universal lnbs on multiple dishes.
Understand what is happening in the receiver and things might make sense.

The receiver works on a set of frequencies that may be referred to as the IF or Line frequency(s). This set of frequencies, more or less is: 950-2150 MHz. Everything else is a conversion of these frequencies.

A KU universal lnb has two l.o. frequencies of 9750 and 10600. The IF frequencies are converted up for ku.
So we have:
9750+ 950 = 10700 MHz. (This is as low as the universal lnb can go in frequency)
9750 + 2150 = 11900 MHz (This is the highest possible frequency with 9750 l.o.)
10600 + 950 = 11550 MHz (This is the lowest possible frequency with 10600 l.o.)
10600 + 2150 = 12750 MHz (This is the highest possible frequency with universal lnb)

11700 Is the cutoff frequency frequency. This means that most fta receivers will automatically turn 22KHz tone ON when this frequency is reached during a scan or when a channel is changed that has this frequency --or higher. So 22KHz tone is automatically ON after 11700 MHZ.

Changing a lnb type to something besides Universal in a receiver's antenna settings menu will disable the automatic 22KHz tone switching. But you still have to set 22KHz tone to ON in antenna setup so the universal lnb will switch to the high 10600 l.o. frequency.

Enigma2 blindscan also recognizes universal lnb as that was the first and only lnb that was made for blindscan when it was first created for enigma2. So you have a High band and a low band - 2 step blindscan for universal lnb automatically built into enigma2 blindscan. Without getting into great detail, a 22KHz tone can cause problems in enigma2 blindscan. It is much better to use a diseqc switch to UN-complicate things. A 22KHz tone can be used if it is understood how it works in most receivers, both open and closed source, but a diseqc switch makes things much easier.

[Keith Brannen]

With my motorized dish I'm currently using USALS to jump from sat to sat. El bandido suggested earlier that using a diseqc switch will allow me to keep using my usals settings. My next questions, based on what you stated above is:

1) If I just get a diseqc switch can I still keep using both universal lnbs?
2) if no to #1, can I keep one univeral lnb and just buy this one: [Only registered and activated users can see links]
3) Will a new diseqc switch allow me to scan both the upper and lower bands of a universal lnb on both dishes ? If so, does this mean the stb settings are configured once and no further adjustments will be required?

The ideal situation would be to get a diseqc switch. Keep using USALS to move my dish. And not having to worry about which halfs of the spectrum I'm able to scan. It seems from what I'm learning and what is being suggested this is the case.

Yes to both questions 1 and 3.

[WilburSmith]

@Keith, Well that appears to be the ideal arrangement and with no down side. Why is the 22 switch even around if it has all these downsides ?

[WilburSmith]

All I run is universal lnbs on multiple dishes.
Understand what is happening in the receiver and things might make sense.

The receiver works on a set of frequencies that may be referred to as the IF or Line frequency(s). This set of frequencies, more or less is: 950-2150 MHz. Everything else is a conversion of these frequencies.

A KU universal lnb has two l.o. frequencies of 9750 and 10600. The IF frequencies are converted up for ku.
So we have:
9750+ 950 = 10700 MHz. (This is as low as the universal lnb can go in frequency)
9750 + 2150 = 11900 MHz (This is the highest possible frequency with 9750 l.o.)
10600 + 950 = 11550 MHz (This is the lowest possible frequency with 10600 l.o.)
10600 + 2150 = 12750 MHz (This is the highest possible frequency with universal lnb)

11700 Is the cutoff frequency frequency. This means that most fta receivers will automatically turn 22KHz tone ON when this frequency is reached during a scan or when a channel is changed that has this frequency --or higher. So 22KHz tone is automatically ON after 11700 MHZ.

Changing a lnb type to something besides Universal in a receiver's antenna settings menu will disable the automatic 22KHz tone switching. But you still have to set 22KHz tone to ON in antenna setup so the universal lnb will switch to the high 10600 l.o. frequency.

Enigma2 blindscan also recognizes universal lnb as that was the first and only lnb that was made for blindscan when it was first created for enigma2. So you have a High band and a low band - 2 step blindscan for universal lnb automatically built into enigma2 blindscan. Without getting into great detail, a 22KHz tone can cause problems in enigma2 blindscan. It is much better to use a diseqc switch to UN-complicate things. A 22KHz tone can be used if it is understood how it works in most receivers, both open and closed source, but a diseqc switch makes things much easier.

I hate asking this question but where are you pulling all these numbers from? I get the 9750 and 10600 as this represents the highest to lowest frequencies that can be received thus making it a universal lnb but in between your adding 950,2150, to these numbers and I couldn't tell you why are where they come from? Mysterious...

If you got a link that explains I's appreciate reading up on what you are explaining as it went over my head.

By the way is the 'IF' above a type? I think your describing Line frequency which should be (LF) or am I wrong?

[WilburSmith]

Do you guys know about Pansat brand switches? Is it a good brand? I guess this one can be used to solve the problem above.

17836

[el bandido]

Pansat went out of business some 15 years ago. So that switch is 15-20 years old. Would expect it to still work. It is a decent fta product.

9750 and 10600 are local oscillator frequency(s) for the lnb.
950~2150 Is the typical line frequency for the FTA receiver, sometimes called the IF frequency OR intermediate frequency.

This is common knowledge:

In the United States, service providers use the intermediate frequency ranges of 950–2150 MHz to carry the signal from the LNBF at the dish down to the receiver.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Keith Brannen]

@Keith, Well that appears to be the ideal arrangement and with no down side. Why is the 22 switch even around if it has all these downsides ?

22 KHZ switches work very well with Standard LNBs (LO of 10750, no built in 22 KHZ switch) or with one Universal per 22 KHZ switch (using the LO of 10600 and 22 KHZ turned on). On a 4x1 diseqc switch, instead of just 4 LNBs, you can get 8 LNBs using a 22 KHZ switch on each port using Standards only. Since most of the satellites in our sky don't use the lower band, a Standard LNB is all that is needed. You can also just put a Universal on one port (or more), and double up the Standards on the other ports. So, a 22 KHZ switch can be quite useful, especially if you have only fixed dishes like I do.

[WilburSmith]

2On a 4x1 diseqc switch, instead of just 4 LNBs, you can get 8 LNBs using a 22 KHZ switch on each port using Standards only.

Why would you want to do this? From what I see online an 8 port DiSEqC switch is $19.00. Where as 4 22KHz switches will cost $32.00 + $8.00 for the DiSEqC switch.

[Keith Brannen]

Why would you want to do this? From what I see online an 8 port DiSEqC switch is $19.00. Where as 4 22KHz switches will cost $32.00 + $8.00 for the DiSEqC switch.

I bought my 22 KHZ switches a long time ago (been doing FTA since 2006) when I only had a 4x1 switch. At that time 8x1 switches were harder to find, and expensive, I bought my first 8x1 (EMP Centauri) in 2007 (and bought more 22 KHZ switches). It wasn't long before I put the 8x1 on port one of a 4x1, and at one time had 22 LNBs (using 22 KHZ switches, and Shaw Direct dishes which have dual LNBs that use a built-in 22 KHZ switch to switch between the two LNBs) on its 11 ports! I only recently retired the 8x1 EMP Centauri off my AZBox receiver, and am just using a 4x1 with 8 LNBs (most are the Shaw Direct dishes). On my Amiko I have a Amiko 8x1 switch on port one of a 4x1 switch, so again 11 ports and have 14 LNBs in use. I would add more LNBs if I could, but we have lost quite a few satellite positions over the years, so pickings are slim.

[el bandido]

Pretty much No systems are setup the same in fta satellite. Some systems are setup dirt cheap, while other systems can be over ten thousand dollars. People set things up to suit their particular wants and needs with some systems being complicated and some being simple. Almost everyone that has been in the fta hobby for some years will have extra switches, receivers, lnbs, dishes, and other stuff either in storage or just not being used at the moment.

Personally I prefer a separate tuner for each satellite lnb, but receivers with more than two tuners that have the features I want don't currently exist. I also like a receiver to have a several Terabyte internal hard drive. IMO, a decent tuner for each lnb is the best way to go. But I don't have 20 dishes either.

[WilburSmith]

I bought my 22 KHZ switches a long time ago (been doing FTA since 2006) when I only had a 4x1 switch. At that time 8x1 switches were harder to find, and expensive, I bought my first 8x1 (EMP Centauri) in 2007 (and bought more 22 KHZ switches). It wasn't long before I put the 8x1 on port one of a 4x1, and at one time had 22 LNBs (using 22 KHZ switches, and Shaw Direct dishes which have dual LNBs that use a built-in 22 KHZ switch to switch between the two LNBs) on its 11 ports! I only recently retired the 8x1 EMP Centauri off my AZBox receiver, and am just using a 4x1 with 8 LNBs (most are the Shaw Direct dishes). On my Amiko I have a Amiko 8x1 switch on port one of a 4x1 switch, so again 11 ports and have 14 LNBs in use. I would add more LNBs if I could, but we have lost quite a few satellite positions over the years, so pickings are slim.

Are the shaw dishes the same as PrimeStar?

[WilburSmith]

I would imagine a lot has to be also custom designed around what you can find. But I tell you this. Reading an advert on what my 22 switch was suppose to do as compared with actually deploying it into my system was very unexpected. But now as I have learned it appears I just need the diseqc switch and I'll be back in business.

[Keith Brannen]

Are the shaw dishes the same as PrimeStar?

They are similar (as far as I can tell) but are different, and are still in use for Shaw Direct subscriptions. Both were/are made by Channel Master, and are elliptical dishes. The Shaw Direct dual LNBs are 3.8 degrees apart, for the satellites at 107.3 and 111.1 (which is dying, and all channels being moved to 107.3). In my opinion the dishes outperform their ratings (60e and 75e) and work well for FTA, especially the 75e.

[Keith Brannen]

I would imagine a lot has to be also custom designed around what you can find. But I tell you this. Reading an advert on what my 22 switch was suppose to do as compared with actually deploying it into my system was very unexpected. But now as I have learned it appears I just need the diseqc switch and I'll be back in business.

What did the advert say? As I said, the vast majority of the satellites in our sky don't need a Universal LNB, so the advert was probably geared to use with Standards. If you had had just two Standard LNBs, it would have worked just fine. But, at the very least, the advert should have said something like "not for use with Universal LNBs".

[WilburSmith]

I acquired a 1 meter PrimeStar dish and decided to set it up on a dedicated mount so I could practice finding satellites. But then I discovered it was picking up transponders my 90cm dish was unable to get so I was impressed. If I find more of them I'll grab them.

[WilburSmith]

Here is the link to the advert:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It does say: "Also can be used to send Universal 9750/10600 LNBS to 10600 L.O. Freq only"

[Keith Brannen]

Here is the link to the advert:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It does say: "Also can be used to send Universal 9750/10600 LNBS to 10600 L.O. Freq only"

OK, so it does basically have the warning necessary, but maybe not as explicit as it might have been.

[Keith Brannen]

I acquired a 1 meter PrimeStar dish and decided to set it up on a dedicated mount so I could practice finding satellites. But then I discovered it was picking up transponders my 90cm dish was unable to get so I was impressed. If I find more of them I'll grab them.

If you do, with a 4x1 switch you can add two of them, and if you use Standard LNBs and two 22 KHZ switches, four! Or get an 8x1 switch! LOL!

[WilburSmith]

I received a switch today and wired it up. I changed the ports in the antenna settings and now everything is working smoothly. Thank you to everyone who helped me learn how this works.

ps where is the thread solved button?