Titanium ASC1 or ASC-1: Read This Before Buying

[ArloG]

Think about it. The ASC-1 doesn't know if the motor is turning cw or ccw. Becuase the encoder is a simple switch closure. Not a quadrature encoder with leading/trailing pulse pairs.
Therefore. If it were true that you were able to simply put your Harley battery out at the motor. Unhook the to-the-house motor power wires. And give the motor juice. How could the counter know which way to move?
In the ASC-1 MCU. When it commands the relay pair to energize the coils and switch motor polarity and apply power out to the motor.
If it assumes that the actuator is going to move in X direction. The MCU flips into a counts up mode.
When the relay coils are activated to reverse and apply power to the motor. The MCU inverts counting. And down she goes!
You could choose to extend the actuator and have it count up. My choice. Or have it count down when extended just by swapping the motor polarity. The reed switch don't care.

[lme]

Think about it. The ASC-1 doesn't know if the motor is turning cw or ccw. Becuase the encoder is a simple switch closure. Not a quadrature encoder with leading/trailing pulse pairs.
Therefore. If it were true that you were able to simply put your Harley battery out at the motor. Unhook the to-the-house motor power wires. And give the motor juice. How could the counter know which way to move?
In the ASC-1 MCU. When it commands the relay pair to energize the coils and switch motor polarity and apply power out to the motor.
If it assumes that the actuator is going to move in X direction. The MCU flips into a counts up mode.
When the relay coils are activated to reverse and apply power to the motor. The MCU inverts counting. And down she goes!
You could choose to extend the actuator and have it count up. My choice. Or have it count down when extended just by swapping the motor polarity. The reed switch don't care.

Agreed, but just wanted to test EB's suggestion. I'm sure that the hole functionality of ASC is governed by the main chip response to the commands given to the unit itself. As long as an external source is operating the motor, it will not take any action such as to display a count or anything else.

[ArloG]

I guess depending on how your motor is put together you could park your dish at its mechanical/electrical limit.
Then if you so desire mark exactly where the limit cams line up. Remove the microswitch screws and let the switches hang. Unbolt the motor from the tube.
And then power the motor up with your DC power source. And let it spin until the cows come home.
After that press the E-W buttons on the ASC-1 and it will count up or down w/o errors.

I'm wondering. Perhaps will read back for a refresher. Why would you think you need a separate transformer?
The motor drive side of the ASC-1 has its own bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitor. Using the 24 VAC xformer winding. The electronics side has a bridge of 4 separate diodes. That runs from the 22 VAC xformer winding.

If more motor speed were needed my choice would be to build an external H Bridge with cube socket relays or SSR's and a Meanwell 36 VDC switcher.
And keep the guts of the dish mover intact. But. That's me. Probably could kicad up a diagram in a few minutes.

[el bandido]

Think about it. The ASC-1 doesn't know if the motor is turning cw or ccw. Becuase the encoder is a simple switch closure. Not a quadrature encoder with leading/trailing pulse pairs.
Therefore. If it were true that you were able to simply put your Harley battery out at the motor. Unhook the to-the-house motor power wires. And give the motor juice. How could the counter know which way to move?
In the ASC-1 MCU. When it commands the relay pair to energize the coils and switch motor polarity and apply power out to the motor.
If it assumes that the actuator is going to move in X direction. The MCU flips into a counts up mode.
When the relay coils are activated to reverse and apply power to the motor. The MCU inverts counting. And down she goes!
You could choose to extend the actuator and have it count up. My choice. Or have it count down when extended just by swapping the motor polarity. The reed switch don't care.

The test I described is valid for most G box and V box type positioners. The G box and V box type positioners were 40-50 dollars a few years ago, but are a bit pricey today. The pulses or counts go up on these type of positioners anytime the actuator is moved or something else is done to trigger a pulse. The pulses are recorded as counts on the front of the poaitioner when it is powered ON. The counts will be added all in one direction regardless of how the actuator is polarized. The pulse counts may be changed to add or subtract by pressing the east - west buttons on the front of the receiver or by using the positioner remote.

I remember my ASC1 performing the same way where the counts would be added or subtracted anytime the unit was powered on, but apparently my memory is flawed or I had an unusual software installed in it. Pulse counts need to be recorded at all times so any errors in the dish moving may be seen. Cutting the pulse counts off once the positioner has supposedly stopped is a dis-service to the user as any extra pulse count errors will be "unseen" and the operator will be left wondering what the hell is going on.

A stock ASC1 will produce about 100 watts if it is pushed hard enough. You will see this wattage at about 5 amps of draw and 18-20 volts dc output going to the actuator. This amount of power is a bit more than the V box or G box which can produce around 60-80 watts of motor moving power.

I have a Prodelin commercial with a dish weight of about 320 pounds. The dish is in 8 sections, and each section weighs a bit over 40 pounds when put on a calibrated refrigerant scale. The feed and other items puts the weight up to about 350 pounds without the mounting skeleton or polar mount included.

It takes more energy to move my type of dish as compared to most anything else a person will find in a backyard. A 10 foot mesh dish has a dish weight of 60-80 pounds, and some of the homeowner fiberglass will double that mesh dish weight or maybe a bit more. 12 foot home owner dishes will have a bit more weight than the ten footers, but hardly any of them will come close to the weight of a commercial Prodelin. In other words, you can make power modifications to any of the positioners mentioned in this thread, but in most cases, they are not really needed.

The parts shown in post 4 of this thread were installed in my ASC1. These two parts provide 180 watts continuous, with the transformer only being used to supply the low dc voltage needed power the ASC1 The small power supply provides a rated 180 watts continuous power, and provides a steady 35 volts dc while doing so. Peak power is 240 watts, which I have seen a time or two.

In normal operation, it takes a brief surge of about 180 watts to get the dish moving if it is 40 degrees or further from center. But this 180 watts immediately settles down to 100 watts or less. When the motor is moving across the center of the arc, around 40 watts of power is all that is needed. The dish moving is done with a 36 inch ball screw actuator by Venture.

I don't really suggest installing the parts shown in post 4 because they are not needed in the ASC1 unless you want to try to improve the dish moving speed. The ASC1 cannot hold its advertised 36 volts dc when powering the actuator with a ten foot dish attached. It can move the ten footer with east though, but a bit slower than a postioner that runs 35-36 volts dc all the time.

So my opinion here is LME should either fix the ASC1 or simply replace it with a V box. The ASC1 has great advantages when used with a corotor, but for just day to day dish moving, a V box will do that task with ease on most homeowner type dish systems. IMO, the V box type postioners have better software than the ASC1, but they also have less features. I don't recommend modding the ASC1 as shown in post 4 unless there is a reason for it. The only thing most people will see with these mods is an increase in dish moving speed.

[ArloG]

Sorry man. Didn't mean to get all riled up. I've got those 3 defective ASC-1's here 'in the queue' to get running.
The first thing of thought when a simple slap-a-bigger-transformer-in-it was brought up is how small and fragile the pc board traces are.
There is over current protection built into the circuitry that provides feedback to the MCU.
Different from 'motor stall or sensor failure when the actuator slows or the encoder (reed switch) becomes flaky. Motor is Shorted. And LNB is shorted.
Something y'all Atlanter folksies never experience is when it gets below zero and the grease in the actuators becomes candle wax.
So. In my case. At first wrapping a heat tape around the tube and motor. Later just driling a hole for a zerk and pumping in super low temp. grease and flushing out the OEM stuff.
And just in case. Instead of the pulse sensor lag and returning an error. Because 1/6 revolution of the main drive coupling gear waiting for gooey, frozen, roofing tar grease to start flowing.
An encoder wheel with quite a few more ppr fixes that.
Although people up here do comment on how I lived in Florida all of those years. And how hot it is.
I just smirk and mutter. The hotter it gets, the less they wear. Wanna' buy a farm? I gots deers and turkeys and can fish out my back door and there are stars forever. And no friggin' rap 'music' and tomato can mufflers cruising by at all hours. A chopper spotlighted me in Orlando one night headed out to flop my butt on the Harley. I just waived. Warthogs were doing exercises over my fields, treetop level here. I traipsed up and gave 'em a salute. They gave me wing wags and hard breaks backs. Cool, huh!

Nevertheless. There must be a reason that even though most actuators are rated at 36 VDC. These gizomos, the Titiainum and vboxes, send out 24 volts transformer power.
On a side note. I laugh at the audio guys who spend $1500 and up for exotic speaker cable.
And never realize that the audio amps in their stereo have pc board traces that are a few millimeters wide. Maybe like 5. And a few thousands of an inch thick. Mixing imperial and metric is fun.
And once inside of the speaker cabinet. The wiring is 16 gauge.
Kinda' like hooking up a fire hose to the hose spigot on the side of your house. Running it out to the garden And hooking up a 5/8" watering hose to soak the termaters.

Anyway. Relays going bad and digging inside and cooking pc board traces by those less experienced. Splicing in a super inefficient and higher voltage transformer to add load to already weak (but adequate within its design) pc board. Could be eliminated by an easy couple of evening or weekend project.
Duplicate the internal relay circuit with solid state relays, perhaps a hard contact relay for motor reversal and socket. A robust switch mode power supply that provides voltage and current regulation and compensation. All in a compact outboard assembly. I get riled once in awhile. It's all good though. There is that KMA option below which I really like!

[lme]

After my problem with "...reach the limit.." error message, another problem: when the dish was traveling for more then ~30° from one position to another, the display was blinking, went dark, but after the dish reach the destination, display was lit. No signal at the destination point and trying to fine tune the dish, realized that asc lost the counts for the position.
Looked inside asc, and found that one component was kind of lose on the circuit board (see arrow):

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Noticed that this component is very close to the main transformer; maybe to much heat from transformer ?
I soldered back the 3 legs of the component and for the last 2 days, no more errors or display problems.
What do you guys think ?

[Fearless]

After my problem with "...reach the limit.." error message, another problem: when the dish was traveling for more then ~30° from one position to another, the display was blinking, went dark, but after the dish reach the destination, display was lit. No signal at the destination point and trying to fine tune the dish, realized that asc lost the counts for the position.
Looked inside asc, and found that one component was kind of lose on the circuit board (see arrow):

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Noticed that this component is very close to the main transformer; maybe to much heat from transformer ?
I soldered back the 3 legs of the component and for the last 2 days, no more errors or display problems.
What do you guys think ?

I found that variable voltage regulator to be misaligned in several PCBs. Soldered to the board next to the thru holes they should be mounted in. I had one break during use. That brought my attention to it and I found others with a similar problem.

[Fearless]

There is a fix to improve the LCD display contrast. Thought I would write this down before I forget it. On the LCD pcb remove R3 (222) and replace with (472).

[el bandido]

.
Something y'all Atlanter folksies never experience is when it gets below zero and the grease in the actuators becomes candle wax.
So. In my case. At first wrapping a heat tape around the tube and motor. Later just driling a hole for a zerk and pumping in super low temp. grease and flushing out the OEM stuff.
And just in case. Instead of the pulse sensor lag and returning an error. Because 1/6 revolution of the main drive coupling gear waiting for gooey, frozen, roofing tar grease to start flowing.
An encoder wheel with quite a few more ppr fixes that.

You are probably running an actuator that is operating beyond its lifespan. That is why you had to pump it full of grease. I doubt you find find a grease fitting on a new heavy duty actuator. They are sealed units and what they have in them is supposed to last the lifetime of the unit. You are living the example of why they don't have grease fittings anymore: Cold weather.

Nevertheless. There must be a reason that even though most actuators are rated at 36 VDC. These gizomos, the Titiainum and vboxes, send out 24 volts transformer power.pc board.

The reason is cheap. Vbox type Positioners are made from the cheapest materials known to man. Disassemble one sometime and you will see...

I never fully understood the ASC1 either. The stock transformer weighs something like 6-8 pounds. WHY? I have been running the small power supply's shown in post 4 of this thread for years without a failure The cost of one of those supplies was about 20 bucks or less when I bought them. They do a fantastic job of providing the needed DC voltage and watts to power satellite actuators. A satellite dish positioner is all about start-up. It only has milliseconds to move or you get a failure. Twenty something volts and an amp or two for current in cold weather probably doesn't cut it for some folks --even when using a mesh dish that is not very heavy.

[ArloG]

You are probably running an actuator that is operating beyond its lifespan. That is why you had to pump it full of grease. I doubt you find find a grease fitting on a new heavy duty actuator. They are sealed units and what they have in them is supposed to last the lifetime of the unit. You are living the example of why they don't have grease fittings anymore: Cold weather.

Well. To counter that. Actually. One train of thought would be yeah. 5 years, swap it out. Except for the same dish my mom and dad had installed back in the 80's is still standing. And I use it today after some mild refurbishing. There is literally a box of actuators from Venture, Von Weise, Saginaw Gear, "Houston Tracker". Dad just wrapped a heat tape and sliped pipe insulation over it and ran an extension cord to keep it warm in the winter.
Funny. "End of life". No maintenance. Run 'er 'till she pukes. Installers back in the day loved it. It gives you crap. Call him. He shows and swaps the unit out. Resets your positions. And bills you.
If you didn't move that dish in the cold cold winter. No problems. Wait 'till spring. Or. Slap on a heat tape (even on a brand new replacement) and punch Satcom 4. Ba-da-bing!

Go ahead. I dare you. I challenge you. Take an aged but working fine actuator-du-jour. Throw it in the deep freezer and get it down to -10f. Give it some pixies.
You've probably never (or remember) trying to start a car in subzero temperatures. "ER-RRRR-RRR-RR-R....*Start*. IFyou're lucky. Not so lucky? After a few cranks...*click click click*
Charger time. And starting ether. Jesus! Automatic tranny's don't even have dipsticks anymore. And factory recommendations to never change the sauce in them. She pukes, swap 'er out.
Goodfellas...."eff you, pay me". Fred at your local independent service facility with beer in the fridge who happens to know and love your type of vehicle knows better.
Pull the pan. Dump "at least" some of the juice. And refill it. And 4 grand pending turns into a hundred-fifty bucks and 200k miles before trading in.

So. A drill. A zerk. A grease gun loaded with Lucas super low temp grease that looks like a nasty sinus infection discharge. Not exactly a bad thing. And it works. Tear down the motor. Clean and grease it. A pair of brushes from the auto parts or hardware store assortment. I rest my case.
Is a polar mount worn out when the pivots are sloppy and the bronze bushings are all hob-wobbly? Thirty bucks for pillow blocks. A few bucks for hardware. Center punch a few dimples. Drill a few holes. ratchet strap and c-clamp a few things in place. Mr. DeWalt and some sharp drills.
What would you think if I were to come out and condemn your Prodelin because the pivots were toast? Look at my quote for a new General Dynamics 12 footer. Nah. I don't think so.
Oh yeah. This is all grain of salt and backbone. Please don't turn into a shrinking violet.
I'm a living example of my economy is not disposable. American Ingenuity. Dislike for planned obsolescence. Drinking a cold beer under a shade tree from a recycled Hyundai and Kia.
One stinkin' hole. A grease fitting. Some pumps of goo. And Venture waits another day.


The reason is cheap. Vbox type Positioners are made from the cheapest materials known to man. Disassemble one sometime and you will see...

I never fully understood the ASC1 either. The stock transformer weighs something like 6-8 pounds. WHY? I have been running the small power supply's shown in post 4 of this thread for years without a failure The cost of one of those supplies was about 20 bucks or less when I bought them. They do a fantastic job of providing the needed DC voltage and watts to power satellite actuators. A satellite dish positioner is all about start-up. It only has milliseconds to move or you get a failure. Twenty something volts and an amp or two for current in cold weather probably doesn't cut it for some folks --even when using a mesh dish that is not very heavy.

The Vbox I can 100% agree on. It's open source and readily available for cheap to nothing to design and program. They work. The code is locked in the MCU by whomever decides to clone them.
Could they be made better? Certainly. Could they have a nice display like the ASC-1? Probably.

The ASC-1? It's a love/hate for me. All I want to do is repair a few. Reverse engineering the circuitry took a bit for the sections that show faults. And the whole design is "eyes only". I will need Brian's assistance after getting the circuitry aced. One, maybe two need microcontrollers. Not so hard to do with the right equipment and skill.
It's a Vbox in essense. With some really cool bells and whistles.
The motor power side is rectified xformer voltage. No regulation to speak of and prone to voltage/current sag. Something that a SMPS would handle most awesome. Plus just sitting in the case it sucks juice and makes heat. Again. something that SMPS supplies do very well in management of idle current.
And in agreement of the millisecond lag dish movement error generation. Try it when your motor grunts trying to get that negative-twenty molasses squishing.
Instead of drooping voltage and current running through X feet of cable. An smps senses it and compensates. Everyone needs a little boost once in awhile.

Vbox. Cheap. They work. No big sting if one takes a crap.
Make your own from a PIC mcu. Bare PC boards are out there.
Adruino. Now. That catches my interest. The diseqc library is freely available. Projects abound. Some are pretty cool.
The Research Concepts commercial dish movers. 1 axis, 2 axis. Ebay has quite a few nice ones for not too bad of a price.
It was mentioned. Reading from the FTA guys who use them. Pretty robust. Although you have to manually punch up a memory store to move your dish.
But they do have pc software and a RS422 interface. Bing!
Once i get the interest of the right Arduino guy I'll get very involved. Diseqc works on a data string. ASC-1, Vbox "listens" for the command to move to a memory location.
The Arduino motor control projects do the same thing.
It's all there for the Arduino. Instead of waiting for a go-to command and actuating relays and counting encoder pulses.
Let the Arduino receive the command. And relay it transcoded to a RS422 string that a RC mover understands. The data packets of diseqc are very similar to RC controller protocols. But different.
A display on the Arduino showing a command was sent from the receiver to move to SES-1, etc. And the RC mover doing it. No more dead Vbox. No more hoping that your ASC-1 wont die of sudden death.
Arduino guys please speak up!