FTA Receiver and Norsat lnb Electrical Requirements

[ArloG]

I've gotten my Harvard Scientific orthomode feed back from powder coat and ready to bolt up 2 Norsat 3.4 - 4.2 lnb's to it.
All are used. All have been tested and hopefuly work.

My concern is if my Os Mio4k can supply the current. Here are the Norsat's:
8515 DRO. Current draw advertised as 130mA
3120N PLL. Specs. say 250 mA

The 8515 is right in line with my dead Titanium C2-W lnbf current needs.
The 3120N worries me. I certainly don't want to cook the tuner.

There will be a Geosat Pro 1X8 diseqc switch in the mix to do the selection between the Norsat's and a sidecar Maverick ku lnbf.
Not sure how much current the switch draws.

Almost have an ASC-1 repaired and back in operation after months. Can it supply adequate current to power the PLL lnb?

Looks like using a 22 kHz switch to change H-V lnb's is out. And switching in general.
A bit of brainstorming had me duplicating. Let's say 101W satellites.xml.
Changed the orbital assignment, appended H, V in the name.
So assigning one Norsat to 101W H to port 1, 101W V to port 2, and the ku to port 3.
It works. How do I know it will?
Sometime back I needed to tweak the dish a touch when watching 131W. Some tp's needed a few clicks to peak them.
So I made a dupe in the .xml and named it 131W*. Stored it in the ASC-1. It worked!
Scanned it, used a channel editor to drag those channels into the bouquet.

Current draw of the PLL kinda' has me on edge.

 

[el bandido]

Keep it simple.
Use a multi-switch to power the 2 C band lnbs. (A multi-switch uses voltage to switch.)
Put a diseqc switch in front of the multi-swicth for the ku lnb.
No need to butcher a sat file and do the other hoop jumping you mention with a multi-switch.

Used lnbs are used lnbs.
Sometimes they work fine. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they seem OK, but really they are not. Used lnbs were removed from the satellite dish for some sort of reason.

A multi-switch powers both lnbs at the same time. (A 22KHz tone switch powers both lnbs at the same time.)
LNB power is doubled when using a multi-switch if both lnbs are identical because both lnbs are powered at the same time..

Most FTA receivers can supply at least 450 milliamps continuous for anything connected to the tuner. All switches draw some sort of current, so your total power requirement will be lnb or lnbs + switches. For example, 2 lnbs at 130 milliamps = 260 + 50 Milliamps for switches = 310.

It is hard to bench test a lnb. Usually a lnb will not draw the maximum rating sitting on a bench.
If you test the current draw on 2 identical type lnbs, and both have the same or similar current draw, then either both lnbs are bad or both lnbs are good.

If you test the current draw on 2 identical type lnbs, and neither have the same or similar current draw, then most likely at least one lnb is bad.

In general, lnb current draw should go up as voltage decreases and go down as voltage increases. Saying you tested a lnb and it drew 130 milliamps in itself doesn't mean much. What voltage(s) were used for this test?

The best way to test a lnb is to install it and see if it works. But usually when a lnb is bad, the current draw will not be the same. You can expect lnb current draw to change as you point the lnb at different things in a room.

The easiest way to run a pair of pll lnbs that need 200-400 milliamps a piece is to use a powered multi-switch. In reality, pll lnbs usually do not draw as much current as the specs say. Current rating for a lnb is MAX, and not Typical.

Need more Power for the lnbs? Use a Powered multi-switch. Simple enough. I've been running a pair of Norsat DRO lnbs for some years using a non-powered multi-switch.

 

[ArloG]

Keep it simple.
Use a multi-switch to power the 2 C band lnbs. (A multi-switch uses voltage to switch.)
Put a diseqc switch in front of the multi-swicth for the ku lnb.
No need to butcher a sat file and do the other hoop jumping you mention with a multi-switch.

I know you're dead set against the modded satellites.xml 'butcher' thing. But you gotta' agree adding newly found tp's from a blind scan will shorten the time the next one is done.
As simple as it can get (for me) is this. My diseqc switch sets beside the receiver. C band is hooked to port 1, and ku is on port 2. It works ever single time perfectly.
Never had much luck using 22 kHz switches. What are the chances of getting two identical ones being bad out of the box? Geosat Pro's also. After playing around with different receiver settings that made sense. Gritting my teeth. Putting the 1X8 in. Switching lnb's was a breeze. Okay. So.
If using a multi switch is the way to really go. To make the receiver not experience any or very little load. But power the Norsat's with all they need. I guess I will. Back to looking for cabling schemes it is. I've seen where using a 22 kHz switch ahead of the diseqc switch is one way also.
Not really sure in the receiver menu how you would control the tone switch for H/V lnb's. Again, my experience using them is suckaroo.
I just figured that one cable out to the dish. The 1X8 to select any lnb. And my <snick> "butchered" .xml would do it the easiest.
And considering that the added 131 'bump' section in the xml has worked perfect for years. Showing up as an entirely different satellite that I could assign a position to that is 5-10 clicks off to get signals peaked for the few tp's that needed it. Well, go figure.
We could say that your tuner driver mods are butchered. Right? Do they work, and work well? Hellyeah!

Used lnbs are used lnbs.
Sometimes they work fine. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they seem OK, but really they are not. Used lnbs were removed from the satellite dish for some sort of reason.

Haha. Well, Everybody believes in Sharpie! Fingers crossed. Free is free. Got the ortho carefully stripped, innards carefully masked, and low temp. powdercoated for free. But he's getiting some Sam Adams definitely.

A multi-switch powers both lnbs at the same time. (A 22KHz tone switch powers both lnbs at the same time.)
LNB power is doubled when using a multi-switch if both lnbs are identical because both lnbs are powered at the same time..

Oh hell. Missed that. That was what I was going to test. I know if you want to cook an fta receiver tuner. Just plug in a DN triple w/o a power inserter on port 1.

Most FTA receivers can supply at least 450 milliamps continuous for anything connected to the tuner. All switches draw some sort of current, so your total power requirement will be lnb or lnbs + switches. For example, 2 lnbs at 130 milliamps = 260 + 50 Milliamps for switches = 310.

I believe the mio tuner is a Rafaelmicro chip. Not the Avainlnk demod., the chip in front of it at the lnb port. I have a dead 4k+ given to me. Don't hot-swap HDMI cables! I couldn't find much at all for datasheets to find the max. current specs. Maybe will dig the board out and find the part number and give it another go. I think they use the pc board as a ground plane.

It is hard to bench test a lnb. Usually a lnb will not draw the maximum rating sitting on a bench.
If you test the current draw on 2 identical type lnbs, and both have the same or similar current draw, then either both lnbs are bad or both lnbs are good.

If you test the current draw on 2 identical type lnbs, and neither have the same or similar current draw, then most likely at least one lnb is bad.

In general, lnb current draw should go up as voltage decreases and go down as voltage increases. Saying you tested a lnb and it drew 130 milliamps in itself doesn't mean much. What voltage(s) were used for this test?

Well of course. I was going from the lnb data sheets specs. I haven't actually tested either as of yet. The concern (again) is swamping the tuner chip with too much current draw and the resulting heat, or its inability to supply the needed current at a fixed 18VDC, or with 'increase voltage' receiver setting and have the voltage droop at the dish. The Norsats do have a wide voltage range. So common sense tells you that keeping the voltage lower won't cause the internal linear regulator to dissipate the extra as wasted heat.

The best way to test a lnb is to install it and see if it works. But usually when a lnb is bad, the current draw will not be the same. You can expect lnb current draw to change as you point the lnb at different things in a room.

Could be a big maybe. When my ASC-1 died some months ago. I was using the 2nd port of the C2-W. The first port just went dead. So I switched the the other one. Then there was a close but not direct lightning strike. You know, the ones where you smell heavy ozone and see a flash but no crack? Well that resulted in the ASC-1 displaying a never ending "LNB is Shorted". Detatching the Titanium lnbf did nothing for the dish mover. Perhaps contacting Brian on a good day can get me a few tips. R.E. these is not a fun task.

The easiest way to run a pair of pll lnbs that need 200-400 milliamps a piece is to use a powered multi-switch. In reality, pll lnbs usually do not draw as much current as the specs say. Current rating for a lnb is MAX, and not Typical.

Check. Gotcha'.

Just didn't want to guess and figured someone would know flat out. Currently the dish has two siamese direct burial runs of coax. Perhaps. No definitely. Will have to hook them to the bench supply set at 18V and ramp up the current and check where it peaks with a multimeter. I only used one port on the C2-W. One side died, then the other. Pondered on a friend who bought the old CATV building. I believe that the lnb's were take downs. There are lna's and downconverters in a separate box. All sharpied with ok or good. So, fingers crossed.
It looks like they took down the old dishes and had a big (name escapes me) 'Hollywood bowl' dishes installed that has individual orthomode units that cover the arc.

I have seen on satguys a butchered switch that feeds lnb's with a constant 18V. I don't even know if my 1X8 diseqc switch feeds each port with juice depending on if the port is currently commanded on. With a pll, you probably wouldn't even know. I guess that's where some hand's on info would be cool. Do DRO units need time to warm up and stabilize?

Need more Power for the lnbs? Use a Powered multi-switch. Simple enough. I've been running a pair of Norsat DRO lnbs for some years using a non-powered multi-switch.

More info. Need more info. Time to dig. Need to power and switch 2 Norsats. We know that. Need to run a ku lnbf too. Only have 2 coax cables to the dish. And 1 receiver lnb in port.
Until you make me a SF8008 Premium believer. A single in coax is me only option. And running DC out to the dish is not done easily. We don't have sandy soil here and there are no trenchers for rent.

 

[el bandido]

Let's try this again as you are all over the place. I am using one non-powered multi-switch to run a pair of Norsat dro type lnbs. The fta receiver does good to see 250-300 milliamps with this setup. I am running a pair of iDirect pll ku lnbs on another non-powered multi-switch without issues. Don't over-think it. Of course, don't under-think it either, but man it aint that complicated.

Dro and pll lns need around 30 seconds to a minute to stabilize when powered on from a cold state.

You only need one coax run from the house.

Use a multi-switch to operate two Norsat Dro lnbs. Something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2642781500...4jsqpLs4RB2QkTO9G3Fb46odI=|tkp:Bk9SR-ar6p6EZA

Put a diseqc switch in front of the multi-switch to operate the ku band lnb. The diseqc switch only needs to have two ports, but you may have as many ports as you like.

Need more power, get a powered multi-switch. If you think there is some sort of advantage to running 18-21 volts or whatever, then mod a powered multi-switch to your liking. There is a thing called a voltage regulator inside Norsat lnbs. So mod the voltage on the multi-switch anyway you want, then notice the average signal does not change on the lnb after the high voltage mod due to the thing named voltage regulator. A higher voltage though may equal less current draw by a small amount due to ohms law. Mod one for higher voltage and see.

As for having to move x amount of clicks to tune different transponders on the same satellite, one of two things usually causes this. Either the feed is not installed properly or the dish is warped. A lnb can be installed too deep into the scalar ring, which defeats the scalar ring, and can cause transponder type issues. This is an example of a feed not installed properly. Set what you have to the best of your abilities and live with it. But it is not normal in a healthy dish system.

Any satellite dish can warp due to the heat differences it experiences over time. Most bridges and some roads have expansion joints in them to allow for expansion and contraction. A mesh dish is put together in sections, and the sections allow for a bit of expansion and contraction. The homeowner type solid one piece type fiberglass dishes are real prong to warp or having a out-of-round condition probably because no provisions are available for expansion and contraction of the mesh under the fiberglass. This is a reason why one piece fiberglass dishes are more likely to warp as compared to a mesh.type dish.


And for the dish mover, the simplest, easiest thing to use that works almost always is one of the cheap China models. Simply mod the power supply in it if needed and run it. Day in, Day out. Of course if you like to tinker, keep what you have, A smooth running C band dish moving system needs a dish mover that works, proper wiring, and a healthy actuator.

 

[ArloG]

Just a followup. I'll try to not be all over the place.

The disagreement to modify the satellites.xml file makes some sense. But I have been for a long time adding newly found blindscan transponders into the master file. And removing dead ones.
There have been 0 glitches using E-Channelizer as my channel editor. And the .xml is stored on my file server.

Perhaps different models of diseqc switches do in fact keep the lnb ports alive. In the case of the one I use, that's not so.
For the 22 kHz tone switches I have. When I get them to work. They are in fact a tone over voltage activated switch. So if port 1 gets no tone. Voltage to the lnb(f) is passed. Whether 13 or 18 volts.
And both of those findings do support your mentioning of warmup and stabilization time.
Not so bad with a pll with txco oscillator. With a DRO I imagine it could be very true. I've never used a DRO full time. There was a time when I pissed around with retuning a few old Directv and Dish ku lnbf's in the past. But not enough to see the stabilization time when one was fired up at freezing and lower temperatures.

Perhaps my biggest confusion and frustration during this whole ordeal was how to get power to the Norsat lnb pair over coax at a voltage that was not dependent on my receiver or ASC1.
And switch them accordingly per polarization. And use the ku lnbf that is side-carred to my scalar.. Using only two coax cables from my house.
In no instance could I get tone to pass through the DirecTV power inserter. It stopped completely at the receiver port RF capacitor.
I tried researching bias tee low pass filter designs and calculators. Swapped inductors, capacitors, etc. in the bias tee. No joy. None at all.

The 8X1 diseqc switch works on command. It has done a perfect job of switching between the now fried C2W and ku lnbf for a few years now.
It passes tone and diseqc packets to the lnb ports great.

If Enigma2 had a functiion to select diseqc switch ports according to polarity. That would be fckn fantastic. So far, the voltage switches I've seen still output 13/18 volts to the lnb ports.
Am I "out there" yet? Hope not.
I am not above modifying a diseqc swithch as per the "naughty mod" thread on satguys to provide 18 volts continuous to an lnb port. That would still put a stick in the spokes of powering 3 lnbs with two coax cables from my house to the dish.
Again. Wishing to offload the voltage and current load off of my receiver and dish mover.

I have 4 ACS1 movers here. With different faults. Including the one that got a zap last summer. The others I got for practically nothing.
Mine has a fried MCU. One that is repaired and in use now displayed "LNB IS SHORTED". A lot of sketching on paper of the section schematics. A lot of pulling good capacitors and MELF diodes to find the values of them. Whether it's a Zener or Schottky. From the the other boards that show the same ones not open or shorted.
Sourcing the parts from Digikey and Mouser, Newark. Easy. Place an order. Toss in a few comparators and such just because. Replenish my stock of other stuff for my bench.
Reverse engineering, drawing and redrawing the actual schematic. Much more difficult than the actual repair.

There aren't many robust diseqc actuator controllers out there. The one guy on sats.uk that made a more robust version like the ASC1 has said that he made his last one. Because the demand wasn't as he expected. He mentioned that since Titanium discontinued the ASC1. He tried to see if they were interested in selling his. I guess not much interest was given.
So now. People have the V-Box as the only option. Did I hear "Pull....*BLAM* "? How many are stacked in the closet when one bakes and is replaced?
I did spark the interest of the guy though with a seed. The Research Concepts RCK series of industrial actuator controls are out there for cheap. They have pc interface software and a RS-422 serial interface with full programming docs.
All that is needed is some Arduino MCU code or similar and a simple RS-232 level converter to trascode diseqc to their interface. It would be the last dish mover you would ever need.
And in the case of offset orbit satellites where a hobbyist did install an additional actuator. The RC controller could be programmed with a go-to preset to do it all automatically.
Arduino code for diseqc dish movers and diseqc decoders and the libraries needed is already out there. So starting from the ground up is not even needed.
Just some additional code and a human interface chunk of software like the ASC1 has is all that is needed. In a little standalone box with display.
He was very interested. I'm needing to complete a package of info and post it to a file transfer site.

If you've never spoken with anyone from satellitedish.com. Nice guys. I called and asked all of the right questions in the correct terminology.
Apparently commercial satellite folks use a DC block and simply tap into the coax stinger and shield and inject lnb voltage and his reports after the fact verified that it works.
As far as tone and diseqc went. No commercial users implement it. All headend, etc.
I'm "back on track" here. Maybe Back in Black. In a few days.

My final design is shown. A proper power inserter with selectable voltage for one port.
All done with two coax cables. One that supplies power to the inserter.
I am of the belief and resigned the thought that using a tone switch will ever work. It should. But getting the tone past a power inserter is a big not.
Before one, and after a diseqc switch out at the dish. Maybe so.
You look at your satellites.xml file and see every single satellite with a majority that you will never ever be able to receive.
Mine is now (has been for a long long time) trimmed with only the ones that I can swing in my arc. And all of the junk purged.
Because no diseqc port selection per polarity in Enigam2 is available.
My simple solution to create my own properly appended modified satellites.xml has worked great.
I get the most and best signal after hours and days of work tweaking my old 12 footer. Little warps and such that it may have.
131W was the the only satellite that skimmed the treetops. And a few of the transponders did need a few clicks of the actuator to peak signal. A pain every time I switched to a channel on one.
So why wouldn't a smart guy just create a satellite that took care of that and call it a day? Works for me. Right?

 

[el bandido]

There are not many right or wrong answers in fta satellite. There is stuff that works. There is stuff that gives problems. There is stuff that works AND gives problems. I prefer the stuff that works.

I have seen a lot of hand wringing over DRO and PLL lnbs. When you start asking which type is better and WHY, usually you will get a mixed bag of answers, some will be incoherent. In reality, a PLL type lnb does absolutely nothing to help the average FTA signal. Now I gotta ask: If PLL lnbs are so great for fta, then why did Titanium Satellite quit selling them?

You have a stack of ASC1's, all of which are broken. What does that tell you about the product? At minimum, they are hard to repair.

A Vbox is probably the cheapest assembled piece of electronics known to man. The weak point in a Vbox is the power supply. I am using a Gbox that was purchased around 2008. The power supply was modded in the Gbox in 2018 and has been turning my 3.7 meter Prodelin without issues. i don't have any power problems to worry about or to be concerned with.

I purchased a decent Venture actuator in 2019. The combination of the modded Gbox and the Venture actuator have given me close to 6 years of practically maintenance free dish moving. There are fta folks in Colorado and Canada with similar motorized dish systems that have very little maintenance.

As for lnb power requirements, there is No Way I would build a system around sick or broken parts unless it was all I had and all I could afford. You probably don't need near as much power as you think you do. Get an amp meter that reads 3 decimal places. Plumb it into your system and see what your actual draw is.

 

[ArloG]

There are not many right or wrong answers in fta satellite. There is stuff that works. There is stuff that gives problems. There is stuff that works AND gives problems. I prefer the stuff that works.

Too compelled to respond. A little rah-rah, good job (if it works) would be in order. I'd do it for you. Sh...stuff that works is always a good thing. Why did you venture out and buy that Dreambox that turned out to be a big bummer? To take one for the team? Later on that one. Betting it sits on a shelf in a closet with all of the other sh (there I go again) "stuff" that doesn't work. It's enjoyable and frustrating at times taking one for the team. But always satisfying when you can hook a brotha' up and/or find a viable solution on your own when nobody else helps.

I have seen a lot of hand wringing over DRO and PLL lnbs. When you start asking which type is better and WHY, usually you will get a mixed bag of answers, some will be incoherent. In reality, a PLL type lnb does absolutely nothing to help the average FTA signal. Now I gotta ask: If PLL lnbs are so great for fta, then why did Titanium Satellite quit selling them?

In a specific and small 'niche' the easiest way is the best way to get it working. Make it pretty afterwards. I see the whys of the new Titanium lnbf's. I also see the warranty against frequency drift. It makes little sense of the signal and noise issues. It does make sense that looking into my C2W and searching for datasheets for the different ic's in it. Zilch. But. I dunno. All I do know is that my old boat anchor tube radios have to warm up. If you keep them on after a bit they get very stable. My other modern radios with tcxo turn on and are ready to go. With specs that surpass a radio that cost $1500 way back in 1957. That was a pretty fancy cars worth. Or a Jim Walters home. Affordable and cheap. Yup, the new Titanium's do that. I'm thinking the turny-screw waveguide filters do a lot better though.

You have a stack of ASC1's, all of which are broken. What does that tell you about the product? At minimum, they are hard to repair.

Ahhh. Ding! They are hard to repair. Guess why? Think of Apple ANYTHING. Until the schematics leaked and folks did some RE. There were a ton of eye-everything broken and destined to the junk drawer. Even taking an eye-anything into your "genius" section of the Apple store and a dude seeing the little dot being red...."water damage, you're SOL".
Send it to Louis Rossman. And others with boardview software and access to the schematics and component values. For a reasonable fee. Chances are a no-repair return is countered with a reasonable repair fee.
The ASC1 is weak in transient voltage suppression. Yeah. Afterthoughts of adding in the extra components to address 22 kHz and such look a bit dodgy. I don't have any here. G, Vboxes are either an exact copy of the original ones or have gone through revision changes perhaps.They're cheap enough for the pocket to not take a big hit if they do go South. But there's probably a ton of them out there dead in the water taking space up in a drawer or landfill.
I DO have broken ones. I have a lot of broken things. That's what I do. Much of my earnings now are done under a microscope and specialized equipment.
I AM not the genius bar dude who sees red and gives you the good news that the eye-fone 22X Rhodium is right over there in the display case just waiting for you to take it home. Leave your arm and gizzard behind, please!

A Vbox is probably the cheapest assembled piece of electronics known to man. The weak point in a Vbox is the power supply. I am using a Gbox that was purchased around 2008. The power supply was modded in the Gbox in 2018 and has been turning my 3.7 meter Prodelin without issues. i don't have any power problems to worry about or to be concerned with.

That's all that really matters. If it works and works well for you, it's the best decision. Did you expect for it to last this long? Were you surprised?
Who uses a polorotor still in this 'hobby'? Who uses an actuator with a hall or optical sensor? Check out that guys 'better' ASC1 on satellites.co.uk

I purchased a decent Venture actuator in 2019. The combination of the modded Gbox and the Venture actuator have given me close to 6 years of practically maintenance free dish moving. There are fta folks in Colorado and Canada with similar motorized dish systems that have very little maintenance.

I am not of the 'run 'er 'till she pukes type of guy. Something needing minimal maintenance is always good. Something like the wifey's Ford you happen to take a spin in and run a stop sign with the brake pedal to the floor is another. Especially when she says "Oh, it was squealing for a few week but it quit...I just forgot to tell you".
You said pshaw, grease the actuator? Poppycock! From the Saginaw, Venture, Von Weise, and rebadged variants here.With rusted, frozen shafts. I think you Canuck friends might be blowing a little smoke someplace. Maybe not. Even 6 years on a set of brushes and never greased geartrain. I'm rolling my pant legs up and dodging the corn... Haha. But, then you live in jaw-ja.

As for lnb power requirements, there is No Way I would build a system around sick or broken parts unless it was all I had and all I could afford. You probably don't need near as much power as you think you do. Get an amp meter that reads 3 decimal places. Plumb it into your system and see what your actual draw is.

You are 100% correct there. 250-350 mA is not that much. But I still have to get around 20 volts out to the dish. Right? With adequate current and compensation for voltage loss. Right? Everything is currently healthy. And on APC UPS. With almost everything now except for being home when a lightning storm passes protected. Man! You should have been here last summer. A storm came in fast. I unhooked and grounded all of my ham antennas. All of a sudden there was a flash. But no "BANG". And if you've never smelled thick ozone before. It wafted through my open windows like you wouldn't believe. Things kinda' went down hill from there. Including a very expensive Tek DSO that homeowners insurance had no clue what the thing was.

Heck Man. I don't know. Maybe my setup will work. Maybe not so good. Let's see. I do know 'up here' nobody has a concept-one of putting a clothes pin or 2 on a carb fuel line to stop vapor lock. Or putting tinfoil on the doublewide windows and a sprinkler on the roof in the summer. Or eating boiled peanuts out of a ziplock from a roadside vendor. Or going to the local pub for a cold one and learning to never sit with your back facing the door. But I do! Remembering that "We don't care how you do it up North" tee shirt. Clear as yesterday.

 

[el bandido]

Excellent!
Try it and see...
The only thing you have gained with your setup as compared to a powered multi-switch is you might have a bit more voltage going One of to the lnbs. Norsat lnbs are designed to work over a wide voltage range. They will produce about the same performance at 12 volts as they do at 20.

Rust is not a real performance type problem with satellite dish actuators. It is a good idea to run the dish to the east and west limits occasionally to help keep the screw clean. You can expect a satellite dish actuator to rust if it sits on its side for a great period of time, or if it sits in a stationary position when it is attached to a dish for an extended period of time. Use 'em, Run 'em and they don't rust. Regular visual maintenance checks also help. A decent satellite actuator can last 15-20 years, depending on how much it is used, and how long it sits stationary.

 

[ArloG]

A little stick in the spokes.
I have the power inserter and the ortho working pretty sweet. Just a preliminary mount and tweak signal.
I pulled my Zgemma H7.AC out because it has dual tuners.

When I use tuner A to scan for channels. First just using 127W with both H/V tp's in it.
Tuner A is set to the vertical lnb.
In Last Scanned I see the channels. NASA plays perfect.

I use E-Channelizer for a channel editor.
Create a bouquet and name it 127W. Put the scanned channels in it from Last Scanned.
Send it to the receiver and all is good. They play in the 127W bouquet.

Using Tuner B to again scan 127W and wired to the horizontal lnb.
A manual scan turns up those channels. Reelz, etc. are all there.
But getting out of scan and opening Last Scanned shows them.
But choosing one results in tune failure.

On the screen I see that of tuners A B (C, terrestrial is disabled in the menu) A is always highlighted.
I was under the assumption whatever tuner was used. Channels scanned in with that tuner would be used and tuner B would be shown in the right of the screen.
I tried the reverse. If tuner B is scanned first, those channels play.
If I scan in Verticals using tuner A. They scan and show in Last Scanned.
But I get tune failure or service not available. And this time both tuners A & B are grayed out on the screen.

I did try different tuner setup tuner priority settings. Auto seems like the only one that 'works'
And in the Miscellaneous menu there is also a tuner priority setting for A, B, auto.
No joy playing with those settings.

Finally I transplanted my modded satellites.xml with H, V tp's separated like this:

<sat name="H 127.0W C-band Galaxy 13/Horizons 1" flags="1" position="-1271">

<sat name="V 127.0W C-band Galaxy 13/Horizons 1" flags="1" position="-1273">

Certainly that should work, right? Nope. Basically the same thing.
If both tuners are used to scan a different polarity. Tuner A will always prevail.
The tuner setup Priority setting for lower and higher than any auto is really confusing.

What am I missing? I'm trying out the most recent openpli and openvix.
Dumb me, falling for a "working" blindscan plugin for the H7. Nah. Not on c band anyway.

Needing some help here. Please!


On a side note...while getting my senses back. Once I got the power inserter and got it working.
After 15-20 minutes it got extremely warm to the touch on one end.
My intention was to already mod it for an F bulkhead connector to get rid of the t-r-s plug. Since it will eventually go in a weatherproof enclosure.
The LM317 voltage regulator is mounted to the case. With little thermal paste. And right next to the 1000 uF smoothing capacitor.
Too hot. Wayyy too hot and too close to the cap. It wouldn't last long like that. I could vision the electrolyte steaming out and eventually looking like a blown firecracker.
I think it's a clone of a genuine Pico Macom. And although the ad stated it was good to 2450 MHz. The box said 1450 MHz. I think I'm good.

Slapping a scrapped pc psu mosfet heat sink on it with a healthy layer of thermal paste (aka: Desitin) and an extra screw to pull it tight.
It's now only warm to the touch. Linear power supplies are wattage pigs. But they do give very clean voltage.
I also disabled the switch so I don't screw up and send juice back up to the receiver. That would not be good. Snippy-snip with the sidecutters.

 

[ArloG]

Think I got it. I always said yes to Clear Before Scan.
Misinterpreted it as it would clear the Last Scanned bouquet
Just scanned each lnb. Stuck the last scanned results in the editor into a 127W fave.
Switching between tuners now. Used my modded xml for scanning H tp's with one tuner and V's with the other.

Next. Try it using the stock 127W satellite.

Man, what a trip!

Now. To make some flashy leds with dropping resistors the check the ports on my 8X1 switch.
I would just order a 13/18 volt switch from Tek.

Is there a proven and better multiport diseqc switch out there? The Geosat was okay for a few years.

 

[el bandido]

I think you can make your satellite dish system work the way you want with any Legal parts you choose, but it will be a bit of work to maintain because everything in the receiver will need to be done twice.

There is a Plugin for OpenPLi images that allows you to set the receiver to automatically switch between tuners for certain channels that you choose. This Plugin does not exist natively in OE Alliance images, and I do not know how much work it would be to port it over. Just for now, Know that the Plugin exists as a way to actually make the receiver automatically change tuners on the channels that you want between two tuners without a bunch of drama.

Without the above mentioned Plugin, Enigma2 images are setup to use one tuner for a given satellite unless that tuner is busy doing something else such as recording or streaming. The default satellite tuner is A unless you change it, so channels on satellite 127 will be viewed with Tuner A, and it does not matter if Tuner A, B,C,D,E....etc scanned them. If you are going to have vertical transponders on one tuner, and horizontal transponders one a different tuner, then the satellite will need to be named twice, once for each polarity. You know how to Legally make two or more satellite positions in satellites.xml, so this should not be a problem besides being messy.

This is Legal and should work:

<sat name="H 127.0W C-band Galaxy 13/Horizons 1" flags="1" position="-1271">
<sat name="V 127.3W C-band Galaxy 13/Horizons 1" flags="1" position="-1273">

127.0w will have to be set under Tuner A (or B) and the second 127.3w under Tuner B (or A)

If the above satellite scenario Does Not work for two tuners with a single polarity, then you will have to carefully look at your settings as something is either improper or illegal. (Note the added .3 decimal.)

I have never used your Tru Spec power inverter and cannot recall over a twenty something year period of anyone else commenting about using one either. It looks like it will work to a degree and that is probably why I haven't seen it before. The proven-to-work Multi-Switch has always been the ":Given" or assumed solution for two lnbs on one satellite.

Heat or Hot means different things to different people. Someone that works in a bakery and gets burned on occasion will relate to heat different than someone who does office or clerical work. Heat in electronics usually means a lot of work is being done, or some energy is going where it should not go. Your Heat issue probably needs to be looked at carefully.

Used lnbs are a crapshoot at best, Norsat lnb or Not, it is still a crapshoot because you have no idea what the lnb has been through. At minimum, voltage and current should be measured to ensure all is well. I have already posted a picture in this thread of a simple and cheap device I use to check voltage and current. Used lnbs need to be checked, and ensure their current draw is in spec. If there is a lnb problem, usually it will be seen immediately in the current draw.

To save time, test things before they are set to the dish or set to the dish system. Switches use current. Find the voltage out the back of the receiver, and see what that voltage is after it runs through everything. The simple device I have for checking current and voltage can be inserted anywhere in the system. If you don't know the current draw or the voltages then you are guessing at what is wrong. You may be left wondering what the hell is happening and Why.--That is until something burns up or smokes.

And finally the voltage thingy about Norsat lnbs.
I have been looking at purchasing the Norsat BPF PLL lnb to solve my 5G problem and asked the engineer at Norsat about Voltage requirements for it. I specifically asked if it was better to run more than 12 volts dc. Here is the Engineer's reply:

Thanks for your question. You can operate 3200-BPF under the voltage between 12 to 24VDC with a constant current consumption. So, you can consider the power wattage of your power supply can support to determine what the voltage is for 3200-BPF. The performance of 3200-BPF should be the same for the voltage between the required voltage range.

You guys can hand wring all day long about needing 18 or 21 volts to run the Norsat lnb. But in reality, the extra voltage is not normally needed. However, the proper current or Power is needed. Some of the High-End PLL lnbs Norsat makes requires more power than a FTA receiver can produce. In general, a FTA receiver should not need any help powering Norsat PLL lnbs unless you are powering two or more lnbs at the same time. Understanding a particular lnb current draw at different voltages will help in determining if a higher voltage is needed.

Properly measure your systems voltage and current draw. The results may surprise you.

 

[ArloG]

I love music. So on goes Jane's Addiction over coffee and the stylus nudged over Mountain. Everybody has their own opinion is the catch phrase. And it's all good.

Winding down and focusing last night. Now able to figure out how to make it all work with my ring binder and sketches, what worked. How to repeat it.
Mind you, I never used dual tuners on an FTA receiver. The 8X1 switch always did well on my mio4k.
So now there's another mission.

To scan both polarities on one satellite with the H7. Setting one tuner to use a satellite. In my case 127W and with a few cranks of the actuator shaft, 125W.
And the second tuner to use the same satellite.
One tuner scans in fine. It's just that since it cannot "see" the opposite polarity. Those transponders are skipped over.
Using the second tuner after using the channel editor to create a new favorite folder.
And scanning using the tuner. No channels found.

Simply copying the entire satellite section in the xml and pasting it below. Then appending the name for reference and editing the orbital position.
Assigning the duplicated satellite like yours and my examples show.

<sat name="H 127.0W C-band Galaxy 13/Horizons 1" flags="1" position="-1271">
<sat name="V 127.3W C-band Galaxy 13/Horizons 1" flags="1" position="-1273">

Although I don't know where the decimal-three came from. With the orbital position being the key.
Disassociates the software from seeing a duplicate. If you change just the name but leave the position the same. You never see it in your receiver tuner setup.
And assigning the tuners to use the different satellite names. Not even touching the transponder list in them to delete the opposite polarity.
It just works! Spinning over to 125W and repeating my cheat-sheet steps. It-just-worked.

Something you've stated a few times. "Messing" with the xml. I would imagine you really hate Tek when he came out with the "blindscan" files for the H7. I think they are still there on his site.
It could take HOURS to scan a satellite. Because the H7 was misreported that it was blindscan capable.

Or even the likes of 105W???. With the radio channels that take a very long time to scan in. Really long.
Setting a smaller scan range gives faster results. But you need to do it multiple times. And a bug in E2 software bogs down or even stops future scans to a halt. Requiring a reboot.
So a valid procedure would be to take the blindscan .xml results in ./tmp and paste them into the relative satellite in the ./tuxbox .xml.
Whether keeping the software or migrating to a new or different E2 version. Keeping the appended .xml in safe storage and transferring it to the new version.
There is no complete starting over. Much like you can paste Nims info. in the settings file. So you don't have to configure satellites one-by-one.

On the same subject of the satellites.xml. In stock form there are just tons of every single TV/Raadio satellite in orbit. And when scrolling through the list when searching for a sat. to configure.
Most. You will never ever be able to see. In my case 40.5W-127W.
Get rid of all of the others. The software doesn't care. And the bug where if you use the left and right 4-way button to scroll the list too many times still persists. Eventually it freezes. Or refuses to let you go backwards if you bypass your sat. of interest.
Not only does shortening the satellite list make sense. It makes perfect 100% sense. And then, you look at Tek's "blindscan" files.

For me. From back in the chinabox days. Using a dish ku lnbf. Using a single on a receiver. Using a twin worked. But the receiver got hot. Adding a small fan on top of the soic processor cooled it down.
Many would place a fan to blow through the vents. Some would end up with a brick.
Add a triple. No good. Resulting in a brick very fast. The DP, DPP lnb's are power hungry critters.
Adding a 22 volt power inserter to port 1 took all electrical load off of the receiver. With only the diseqc datastream needed to switch lnb's.
Those days are long past. But memories are there, and lessons learned remembered.

A power inserter to power the commercial ortho rig is smart. And it was all free. With the exception of the tru-spec inserter that I'm now about 100% sure is yet another chinesium clone.
Yeah. I guess if the voltage was regulated down to a lower nominal voltage that the lnb's can operate on. And the 24VAC wall wart were in the 15-18 volt range.
It may in fact run cooler. I LOVE electronics. So why not identify a possible issue and try to correct it.
Hot is hot. I have an Asus gaming "laptop". If you lay it across your legs and use it for a period. They get uncomfortably hot. Unlike this laptop that is fairly cool. Until you bring the Nvidia GPU into play over the Intel that usually idles along. So there you have it. Hot is hot.
Run the inserter. Send it back. The coax mod is done. I've identified the heat issue and a heat sink is smart.
LM series voltage reg.datasheets state to keep the bulk capacitor close to the regulator. But even with a 105C rated cap. Heat is their enemy. Especially in a sealed, weatherproof can.
So that's my rant and view on that.

Let's shoot some cow patties. **PULL**....Blam!
A box of free commercial lnb's for my picking. Sharpied "good". And a Harvard Scientific OMT. Now bead blasted and low temp. powder coated. A brake cylinder hone run through the throat to clean up the AL2O3. All nice and like new. Powder done by a buddy who does it for a living.....for a few six packs of Sammy Lager (he shared).
If one of the Norsat lnb's turns out bad. So far things look great. Off to Kevin's warehouse he bought from the local ISP with tons of geekery still inside.
But you gotta' believe Sharpie marks. Yeah.
Current draw checked out within the manufacturers specs. But boy, a lot higher than your average everyday run of the mill one like the Titanium-whatever.

Next task. I would ask if there is a very reliable multiswitch that definitely works with at least the osmio4k.
A voltage switch would be ideal. Few and far between. Unobtanium. And I really would like to stick with a tried and true brand.
A word from someone seasoned who...ummm..."has a closet full of satellite stuff, like a dreambox that came all the way from Spain". Haha (poking 'someone' in the ribs).
Then stick it all in a weatherproof box on the dish pole. Install my perfectly repaired ASC1 with additional TVS devices. On an APC UPS with the famous $50k damage warranty.
And read "someone's" 4 month review of the SF8008 dual tuner receiver.
....coffee, breakfast. Wind down.

 

[el bandido]

Messing with the satellite .xml file can cause problems. Enigma2 is not forgiving when mistakes are made in the satellites.xml file, plus it is something that is rarely used in the receiver by most users. Simple enough?

The bugs and freezing you talk about do not exist on my receiver. Anyway you are trying to power two lnbs without issues, right? Focus on that.

It really helps to know the current draw of a particular lnb at ~14 volts and again at ~18 volts. Saying a lnb is within current draw spec doesn't mean much because the only spec you are given is the maximum current draw, which most systems never realize.

Multi-switches may be installed anyway you like. Mine are just strapped to the dish pole or left hanging. They will work like that for a long time. Zinwell, Eagle Aspen, and some other brand names work well for long periods of time. I would suggest getting a cheap non-powered multi-switch and a cheap powered multi-switch to try and see if they are what you need. Almost any multi-switch will do. Below are two Amazon examples:

Your lnb model numbers are a mystery along with what your observed current draw for them is. But at least one of the two switches shown in the link above should work without modifications unless you have a pair of the high end Norsat lnbs that require around a half amp of current.

https://www.amazon.com/Zinwell-MS2X...nts=p_n_condition-type:2224371011&s=tv&sr=1-8

Powered-2 satellite entries required:
https://www.amazon.com/JVI-35-TRDS8...nts=p_n_condition-type:2224371011&s=tv&sr=1-1

Powered-One satellite entry required:
https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Aspen-...ix=powered+multiswitch,electronics,112&sr=1-5

 

[el bandido]

There are also a bunch of multiswitches on Ebay. The ones shown above may/may not be what you want. A Terk or RCA type multiswitch new on Ebay will be around 50 dollars delivered. I usually get something cheap until I find what I need, then buy what I want after that. Currently I don't use powered multiswitches, but would in as heartbeat if one was needed.

PLL lnbs fo satellite fta are more marketing hype than anything. Yes, DRO lnbs can drift, but how often does that happen? I have a DRO lnb that is around 10 years old on my ku dish. No issues with it. It doesn't take any longer to warm up than the pair of iDirect PLL lnbs sitting on a 2.4 meter dish next to it. PLL lnbs generate more noise than a DRO lnb which means more electronics which means more power. Just depends on what you are trying to do as to whether a PLL type lnb is needed.


Here are pictures of my C band Radio Shack and Ku band Atras multiswitches. Both of these switches have been outside for some years and don't give any trouble. The Atras usually hides from the weather under the ku dish




I have a pair of Norsat 8000RI extended band DRO lnbs. Specs says 250 mA max.
https://www.tvcinc.com/shared-downloads/9435434481-8000ri-spec-sheet.pdf

We can see what is being drawn from the receiver to power the 8000Ri's by connecting the test meter to the input of the multiswitch.



The multiswitch current draw shown above includes the current needed to power the multiswitch itself. Switches do not run for free.

This is why saying a lnb is in spec by looking at its maximum rated current doesn't really mean anything. Also if you have one lnb pulling 100 mA and another identical lnb pulling 150 mA under the same conditions then something is most likely Wrong with one of the two lnbs.

If you are trying to "Hide" the current draw from your system or simply need more current, then installing a powered multiswitch should take care of most of the current draw. Having a powered multiswitch to me is just one more thing that can cause problems. In general, the simpler something is the more reliable it is. I don't wanna constantly work on satelllite antenna systems or constantly correct hardware problems. i want to reliably watch tv and scan satellites. A fta satellite system is only as reliable as you make it.

 

[ArloG]

This is good stuff. Thank you.
So with you saying it don't take nuttin' fancy for a multiswitch is relieving. A bit of a sigh of relief.

Perhaps PLL anything is a bad idea. Since my rig will be powered almost all of the time. Warmup and temperature variations shouldn't be a thing.
In the case of dro. Remember, you don't live in a temperate climate. Pretty positive receivers have automatic frequency and gain built in. But.
Turning on my osmio from deep standby. which is basically off. With no juice going out to the now dead C2W pll. If you immediately performed a blindscan in the winter. Let's say 10F at night.
Or even after an hour or so of warmup. Took a bit to figure out why a frequency listed as, let's say, 4020 at 30000. You get 4016, 29994.
Let the sun hit the dish and get up to 30F ambient. The next scan would give 4019, 29999. So even pll shows drift.
It ain't no biggie to me. It's working. Signal strength surpasses what the C2W ever gave with just a few minutes of tweaks on that heavy-assed ortho.

I would ask you. First. What method do you use to switch your c band lnbs? Do you have a trick since there is no readily available way to make them switch like FTA lnbf's do using voltage switching.
A powered switch makes perfect sense. But not much is documented on how they work.
Does the receiver send 13v and one port is selected another when 18v polarity is sent which would normally work with an FTA lbf?
And in the case of a multiswitch. Wondering what happens when you do hook up a regular lnbf with built in switching. Puzzling? You betcha'.

It may seem to you that my ideas are way over engineered. Of all the years I lived in Florida I never once experienced lightning damage. Gritting my teeth when getting sent out of the city on a whim. Wondering when I got home if anything I did not unplug would be cooked. And believe you me. I got to see a lot of others who suffered.
A whole home surge arrestor "cube" went on the service panel in the few times I needed to move before settiling down. Good. Better than good Tripp Lite power strips, outtet taps.
Here. I got smacked. Lost my Tek DSO. Went back and forth with homeowners insurance. So the rest, hoping you're a little bit understanding.

 

[el bandido]

If a pair of PLL lnbs are mounted, then leave them because you need to see what they do. PLL is abbreviation for Phase Locked Loop which helps with a weak, narrow signal. PLL type lnbs do not offer the average fta signal any help because the transponder symbol rate is too large. If you have a weak transponder with a symbol rate of say 200, then a PLL lnb might help a bit when compared to a DRO type lnb. My suggestion though if PLL lnbs are already mounted, then leave them as no need for extra work. See what they do.

Dish Network and DirectTV use DRO type lnbs. DRO lnbs are not warm climate only. LNB's can freeze if they get cold enough. Leaving thbe lnb's powered when the temperature gets way below 0(F) will keep this from happening.

A multiswitch works the same as a lnbf: The polarities change with the receiver voltage. So you have automatic switching between the pair of lnbs, which is equal to the polarity switching of a lnbf. No other parts are needed for automatic voltage switching besides this: FTA receiver--->multiswitch--->lnbs. Of course you may add other switches, satellite positioners, or whatever else you need, providing they are legal parts or legally installed.

Putting switches in boxes or enclosures can be a good thing to do. For example, my multiswitches would be enclosed or even inside if the switches reguarly turned to a chunk of ice in the winter. But for the most part, satellite switches are designed to be outside, unenclosed. Similar to having lnbs unenclosed on a dish.

 

[el bandido]

A powered multiswitch will have a F connector connection on it for a walwart to power it. This is the same or pretty much the same as a power inserter. Powered multiswitches can usuallyt handle around 1 amp or 1000 mA which allows a person to indeed power those expensive, power hungry lnbs that are rated at 500 mA current draw.

Multiswitches may be used on lnbfs, but the lnbfs need at least two F connectors. Simply connect one lnbf connector to the 13v side of the multiswicth and the other connector to the 18 volt side of the switch. Doing this allows 4 or more receivers to be connected to the dual port lnb. Diseqc switches, 22KHz tone switches...etc may also be installed on either or both 13/18 volt output ports of the multiswitch.

 

[lme]

"I have a pair of Norsat 8000RI extended band DRO lnbs. Specs says 250 mA max.
https://www.tvcinc.com/shared-downlo...spec-sheet.pdf

We can see what is being drawn from the receiver to power the 8000Ri's by connecting the test meter to the input of the multiswitch."
Not that I want to highjack your interesting discussion, but I found another spec paper about 8000ri lnb with diff current spec:

 

[ArloG]

I breezed over your reply. I'm going to say you leave me a little fuzzy upstairs. Let's see.

If you consider the geosatpro 8X1 multiswitch similar to every other one. Here's a conflict.
The label states it's a diseqc 1.1 switch.
And in the sat setup menu the option is for. Let's say. Tuner 1, 127W. You can choose any diseqc port on it. But for that satellite only.
I have not seen where there is a setting to choose Port 1 for H and Port 2 for V.
I just don't see it. And pretty much the same for a tone switch.
What am I missing here?

One lnb is a dro and the other is a pll. As mentioned. Having one or the other is really no biggie. As long as when I get all of this garbage sorted out and the dish moving again.
Strong signals come in strong. And I'll be able to lock onto fringe footprint transponders like was "kind of" fun with the C2W.
Still very interested in finding out what you're able to receive above 4.2 GHz with your extended freq. rig.

The acronyms are all just fine. I know what every one means and how every one functions. I've been pissing with Phase Locked Loop....everything since my cell phone and pager days on the outskirts of DC. Spent a lot of time in screen rooms and such.

Your mention of 'legal parts'. Huh? I mean. I'm not using any F-35 radar components that some guy in joisey sold me in an alley.
But. Exactly what's going on inside my head is exactly"
Now that's interesting
How in the hell is he using a diseqc switch to use a single satellite
And having it switch between different polarities using different ports
Cuz so far I thought figuring out that duplicating sats in the xml was the only way to do it
A voltage switch. One that detects the threshold between 13 and 18 volts and switches ports.
If one was right out there ready to ship here. I'd have it
I Googled it. Duck Duck Go-ed it. eBayed it. Ali Expressed it.
Yet EB kept his way of doing it a secret until now.
Now my gears are spinning more.

Noo. Hijacking is cool if it don't put the topic out in the ethers. Like my Southern English? ....don't.
I stuck my multimeter in series with both of the units. 22vdc supply voltage. The DRO does use noticeably less current than the....Phase Locked Loop Norsat..But both in the mfgr. specs.
Fine.
Do I want to subject an FTA receiver to that? Over the voltage drop of the coax run?
What I can verify right now if so far the Zgemma is running a whole lot cooler than it did running the tuner with the goesatpro and C2W,
Does it matter? Probably not. Should it? Who knows. But go ahead. Slap your phone on the dashbaord and see what she tells you shortly.
Or in the case of the company I worked for in FL.
I was sent an industrial marking printer that had been stored in a shipping container to rebuild. And what a trip that was.
First power on to check if the electronics even worked. All inside a sealed metal cabinet.
Before I yanked the cord there was a series of popping noises. inside. Several capacitors exploded and it looked like firecrackers went off.
So. If it were stored in a cool place would that have happened? Older server racks there even had their own enclosure with an air conditioner. Later, newer upgrades did away with the ice box.
And blade power supply failure was common. Go figure.

I've found no multiple port diseqc switches that explain that they select ports based upon voltage. And for diseqc 1.0, 1.1, etc. Nothing states switching is voltage based. It's all packet data strings.
What's up with that? Know what I'm sayin'?

 

[el bandido]

Either you are not reading, reading what you want to read, or??? Let's try this again in a simple way.

A multiswitch uses voltage to switch between two lnb ports.
A 22 KHz tone switch or a diseqc switch may be installed on both or either one of the two multiswitch lnb ports.
There are two variants of a multiswitch which are powered and non-powered.

Legal, Proper, Correct, or whatever name you want to use refers to how things are setup. For example, putting a diseqc switch in front of a ku motor is not proper or Legal as it can cause problems. Do people do it? Do they have problems? yes. Do some do it and not have problems? yes.
Understand what is Legal, proper, correct, or whatever else you want to call it when installing parts in your antenna system if you want a smooth running system. Do what is right. Don't setup a bunch of parts wrong and then wonder why it does not work right. Don't use junk parts for best results!

Really there is not much more I can tell you. I have tried my best to explain in detail how to set the thing up in various ways that will not give problems along with an explanation on how to test the parts and find/correct problems. I don't see where I can add any more information for you to use.