FTA Receiver and Norsat lnb Electrical Requirements

[el bandido]

The job of the scalar is to keep the lnb "looking" at the dish. When the lnb "sees" the dish and what is behind the dish, then the satellite signal degrades, and you may possibly have multiple lobes, or places on the dish that are strong for one transponder, but weak for another.

Also if the scalar is set incorrectly, then the lnb can only "see" part of the dish and signal from the satellite degrades.

The scalar ring will be set or pulled out for shallow dishes, and pushed in for dishes shaped like a bowl. According to the pictures, your dish is shallow.

If possible, Motorized Dish adjustments should be made on the south or center satellite. Any adjustment you make effects all of the satellites in the arc, and is the reason for making adjustments at center of the arc.

It might be a good idea to run your system a bit and see how it works. I usually try to see how things perform before adjusting anything and make notes of what I have Before making adjustments..

 

[lme]

It looks good, but to me there is a lot of stuff there for only three lnbs. At any rate, what you have should run a long time.

Installing a powered multiswitch would eliminate one piece of hardware which is the power inserter.

Installing a two port powered multiswitch would eliminate both the power inserter and the Chieat diseqc sswitch. But you would have needed to also buy a dual port ku lnbf.

At least you have room for expansion, up to 2 more lnbs with what you have. Hopefully it will run a long time.

You should have around 5 pounds of feed horn and lnbs mounted to the dish. This is not a terribly large amount of weight, and the way you have it setup should hold. The only thing that does not look right is the lnb feed horn seems too deep in the scalar ring, thus making the scalar ring useless.

None of these comments matter though as long as you are happy with the performance. Locking a few 16 or 32 apsk feeds will show how well the system is working. 16 and 32 apsk transponders with 4/5 and 9/10 fec's can be extremely difficult. Hopefully you will get a long period of time out of the system before it needs more maintenance!

Will this simplify his setup ?

 

[ArloG]

Very well could. And that was an interest also. Thing is. A 'little' thought has gone into this. Everything so far, you couldn't buy a Square Trade plan for the cash spent so far.
Thing is. I don't really sense many electronics geeks in this hobby. Opening the tru-spec inserter revealed that it is much more than a cheaply constructed 'bias-tee'.
In the ham radio world a bias-tee is used for mast mounted preamplifiers. They can be simple, with just a capacitor that separates amplifier voltage traveling down the coax back into the receiver.
With sometimes just an inductor (coil) to block RF from the antenna going back into the power supply in the shack. I know. You're getting those possum eyes from Fantastic Mr. Fox.
The tru-spec will catch power spikes at the feed and at least try to keep them from going back down the coax to the switches. Lightning or close strikes? That's a crap shoot.

Maybe getting the microscope out and snapping a pic of the tuner IC on a dead osmio4k+ a guy gave me would make sense. Not the AVL demodulator chip. Compared that that, the actual tuner chip is much smaller. And is tasked with supplying all of the power to everything connected to the lnb port on the receiver. Thermal cam it with just an lnb, diseqc switch? Show how warm they really get.
And fragile? Maybe. With basically a diseqc and multiswitch only needing juice from the receiver now. Maybe it will lead an easy life. Who knows!

Oh. I snagged a 16 aspk tp on 93W. 4140H 34287 2/3 16ASPK. Is 15.8 dB okay? SN12B is broadcasting and looks good in VLC.
I found it quick. A blindscan turned up quite a few more tp's than when I scanned it last around a year ago.
And so. What did i do? You betcha'! The forbidden 'add-them-to-the-satellites.xml-file'.

The ASC1 has something that the vbox should. The ability to blow in a saved file from a pc. Still have a ring binder with all of the actual and interpolated (from encoder pulses) satellite locations jotted down. But loading in all of the previous positions took 15 seconds. Yeahh.

 

[lme]

"Oh. I snagged a 16 aspk tp on 93W. 4140H 34287 2/3 16ASPK. Is 15.8 dB okay? SN12B is broadcasting and looks good in VLC.
I found it quick. A blindscan turned up quite a few more tp's than when I scanned it last around a year ago."


"I know. You're getting those possum eyes from Fantastic Mr. Fox."
No. I had this in my stock from 2005, when I use it. I just remember about this. I also have 2 non powered 3x4 from the same brand. Of course they are all made in china, but they were all working fine.

 

[el bandido]

FTA is a hobby. A person can pinch every penny if he wants and be proud of it. I spend what is needed for a decent system and set the stuff up to run for a while without constantly messing with it. FTA receiver Software changes, but the antenna hardware doesn't change much.

Heat is something I don't worry about unless something is about to melt or catch fire. FTA receivers are made using cheap parts. Usually your junk pile is worth less when FTA receivers are added to it. I don't bother with fixing them. Usually if a FTA receiver has one problem from a lightning Pulse, then it will soon have another problem. I do keep up with and have a good idea of what the power requirements of the antenna system are and try to keep it under 400 mA. Healthy FTA receivers can handle this amount with ease. I rarely turn a FTA receiver off.


How much signal it takes to open a transponder depends on modulation and fec.. A 16 APSK transponder with 2/3 fec takes about the same amount of signal to lock as a 8psk 5/6 fec transponder. The 16 APSK transponders with 5/6 or 9/10 fec are a bit more challenging, depending on how much power they are running. A 16 apsk transponder with 9/10 fec needs around 13 db (snr) to lock and a bit more than that, (1db or thereabouts) that to be usable. A 32 apsk transponder with a 4/5 fec needs around 13.6 db (snr) to lock. Having a receiver that can show signal below lock really helps when hunting for the APSK transponders. Edision 4k's and the SF8008 Supreme have signal below lock capability with modded drivers and modded enigma2 images.


It's nice that the ASC1 has the ability to reload stored satellite positions. Sometimes it loses them for no apparent reason. The Vbox and Gbox do not really need such a feature because they do not dump the stored positions for no apparent reason. Set a Gbox or Vbox up and let it run. The weak point of a Gbox or Vbox is the power supply, but they usually run a long time before failing on most FTA satellite dish systems.

 

[ArloG]

All good stuff. All hobbies are just that. Even hams that volunteered to be on the MARS net didn't get compensation as far as I know.
Hopefully wise decisions were made. My 'hobby' was crippled for a long time. Penny pinching to me is a Koquit receiver with burned and not editable firmware.
So not only do I get to watch TV and listen to phenomenal music. I get to use a little Linux. I wouldn't buy an eBay turbo or injectors. Unless a well known and reputable commercial seller had a store.
Rich from satellitedish.com was eager and super helpful. And patient. My two cents.

Heat is the enemy of electronics. So is current draw. Not saying that 'rated at' and 'absolute maximum' info. from datasheets should be overlooked. All I know is that sweat shop electronics fail far more frequent than the same in a climate controlled environment. Is anyone correct? Is how I decide to hook things up worse or better than the next guy? Let's pass on that one and see if I bitch in a few months. 3 cents.

It will take days to get everything back in order. Cables at the TV are managed and neat. A bit of time to take your advice. Measure my dish again. Determine if actually moving the scalar in so the snout of the feed is less protruded like you suggested. But a neighbor holding a piece of flashing on one side of the dish and me the same on the other. Kinda' shows the scalar is doing its job.
The different modulation schemes and statements about them are helpful. What is not is trying to find an updated document showing the satellite.xml line format.
There have been a ton of transponder changes since everything last worked. A ton! So, a beer.

As far as the ASC1. Never have I had one go biden on me. Skip past reset one step and screw up and hit global reset? Yeah. Guilty.
That guy on satsuk who made a better ASC1 got rid of the transformer power supply for a switcher. Wise. Better yet he got rid of relays for solid state switching. Mosfets rule the world now.
He mentioned recently that he has built his last one. Due to "low demand". He offered them as an alternative to Brian when the ASC1 was being discontinued. He declined.
If he had just a little marketing strategy and let it be known there was a better alternative to a vbox. People (like me) would happily spend the cash. Never minded "buy once, cry once".
It's a good and fun 'hobby'. Except for Internet, I've surely not spent one penny for pay TV besides a stint of code sharing for Netflix and my Prime sub. For a long time now.
And the guys come over with lots of beer for blackout games. One nickel. Five red pennies.

 

[el bandido]

I get around 15db on 4140 at 93w with 5G filters. There may be a bit more signal to be had as nothing was tuned after the filters were installed. These db readings don't mean much. Being able to watch the channels does.

If you are going to watch channels on the strong transponders then you don't need much. If you are gonna look for the hard to get feeds then having signal below lock helps a lot.

The 2 16apsk transponder on 93w are strong and easy to get.
The 16apsk 2/3 fec transponder takes around 9db to lock, but around 10 db is needed to make it usable.


Drop a little bit below 9 db and the transponder is not locked.


A 16apsk 5/6 fec transponder is a bit tougher. It needs about 11.5 db for lock.


The higher the fec, the higher the lock threshold. And you have to be a bit above lock to make the transponder usable. Looking for a transponder that takes 13db to lock can be tricky on a receiver that does not show signal below lock. You can be almost on the transponder and not know it. If you have a receiver that shows signal below lock, then you know when you are near the transponder and also have a good idea of how much more signal you need.

 

[el bandido]

FTA hardware does not change much and there is not much new hardware introduced, except for lnbs, and now 5G filters.

The software especially in enigma2 receivers is always changing. A new format or different modulation type will appear and the software has to be changed to accommodate the new additions. Then there is the thing we have where it worked well before, but it doesn't anymore for some reason. Blindscan in enigma2 is a good, current example.

In a lot of images, it now takes over 1 hour to blindscan then scan for services on satellite 105w c band. Granted, it will take a long time to scan 105w if you look for free services because the couple thousand services have to be looked at and sorted. But just a blindscan that includes ALL services should not take over 5-10 minutes on 105w. Shown below is an example.

 

[ArloG]

Took your advice and measured the dish again. Came up with an f/D of .27
Held both of the old lnbf's side by side and the scales were very close to matching. The ortho has no scale on it. Held the Titanuim up against the scalar. Its scale stops at .30
Pretty durned close, dude. Pretty close. So I'm leaving it.

Yeah I did 105W late last night. A lot of changes since a year ago. Me, scanned tp's and modded the .xml. Then did a manual scan. A bazillion radio channels. Wow. I went to bed.

TNAP and ViX lies. Signal strength is different between the two images on the same sat/tp.
Lets say anyway on your example in ViX I get 14.9-15 dB. In TNAP I get 15.4-15.5 dB. Not bad, huh. Same tuner drivers.
At that point, not so concerned about tuner lock unless someone pops out a cool challenge to try to snag.

What I was getting at for the .xml line format follows from a post on satuniverse from 2020.
Anyways. 99.9% of the setup is done. For very little expenditure and a lot of ASC1 r.e. I mean a Lot! Fifteen bucks for components to fix it and a bottle of Advil.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

frequency and symbol rate you know everything must only be in the format indicated ie in Hertz
polarization = 0 - Horizontal, 1 - Vertical, 2 - Left Circular, 3 - Right Circular
fec_inner = 0 - Auto, 1 - 1/2, 2 - 2/3, 3 - 3/4, 4 - 5/6, 5 - 7/8, 6 - 8/9, 7 - 3/5, 8 - 4/5, 9 - 9/10, 15 - None
system = 0 = DVB-S, 1 = DVB-S2
modulation = 0 - Auto, 1 - QPSK, 2 - 8PSK, 3 - 16APSK, 5 - 32APSK

Satellite with multistream transponder in addition to what is written above, flow parameters must be added: is_id pls_mode and pls_code

<transponder frequency = "11013000" symbol_rate = "30000000" polarization = "1" fec_inner = "7" system = "1" modulation = "2" is_id = "2" pls_mode = "1" pls_code = "131070" />

is_id = 0 - 255
pls_mode = 0 - Root, 1 - Gold, 2 - Combo
pls_code = 0 - 262142

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[el bandido]

A C band satellite dish with a f/D of .27 would be deep enough to sit in. It would also have an efficiency rating in the 50 something percent range. Being deep causes signal (efficiency) loss, but also to a degree protects signals from coming in the sides of the dish. Part of the side of dish with a f/D of .27 are unused for satellite reception, thus the low efficiency rating. It is doubtful your Harvard Scientific feed is designed correctly for a f/d of .27.

Most homeowner C band satellite dishes will have a f/D of .37 to .42, but this is not etched in stone. The scalar ring should be placed or set where it performs the best and not where some ballpark calculation says it should be. A scalar ring set too deep does not add any benefit and actually subtracts a bit.

It is what it is and you have what you have....

TNAP is based on OpenPLi.
OpenPLi and OpenVix use the same signal measurements unless something has changed recently. Images have build numbers and dates. I cannot tell you much more without the build numbers and dates of both images.

 

[ArloG]

ViX is the latest 6.4 fresh install with the latest update screen prompt satisfied. TNAP is the latest here and also a fresh install.
Both are using the TNAP MOD (DVB-S2X ) tuner driver. ViX with the stock driver gave the same apparent display 'boost' in signal. No biggie either way.

Kind of crazy. Maybe I just don't "get it. Slowly obscuring the edges of the dish with sheet metal almost immediately effected signal. So if only parts of it are unused. Not so sure of that.
Now when the scalar was originally set (remember in a previous post) at the 'bible' settings where everyone should use. The dish was very sensitive to arc swing and elevation/declination deviation.
Slowly moving the scalar back rendered nice signal and less sensitivity to locking and losing signal.

And to be honest. The measurements done today might have the scalar set back a touch further than the estimated .27 or whatever I came up with.
The ortho I have here side by side is almost identical to a badly corroded Chaparral that was grabbed from the box-o-stuff. This one is stainless or some metal that had very little if any pitting. The ports got taped over and bead blasted and then low temp powder coated to not melt the plastic plug in it. So who knows? Probably? Maybe? Or a tried and true design. Which the Chinese have obviously copied in one way or another.
But. Remember also that this feed sets deeper in the mount than the Titanium did. So snout stick-out you noticed was needed to get focus and strong signal. By around 3/8".
I was careful initially to measure the depth (or distance from the face of the dish) and put the new feed exactly as deep as the previous one.
It wouldn't go in that deep so i ended up moving the scalar in until it would. What a trip.


Whether size matters and the larger diameter offsets something like a 10' Prodelin or Channel Master in terms of efficiency.
"It is what it is".

I don't see many to compare with. It works. And better than it ever did. So, cool with me.
Perhaps an experience with wise tips for anyone else who dives into a project like this.
Maybe close this one out until the next panic attack.